John Lamb Lash

Transcript

00:01

today we are going to dive into the

00:04

topics of Gnosticism sacred ecology the

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archons religion belief and much more we

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have John lash with us on the line and

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we're going to talk about his book not

00:15

in His image Gnostic visions sacred

00:18

ecology and the future of belief

00:21

John's website that you need to take a

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look at is meta history or that's an

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excellent and vast resource with the

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tons of articles for you to explore

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further into these topics so it's a

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pleasure to have John lash with us here

00:36

today hi John welcome to read as

00:37

Christians radio thank you very much for

00:40

having me thank you for joining us it's

00:43

excellent to have you here I've been

00:44

looking forward to this program for a

00:46

long time so it's great to to have you

00:48

on here

00:49

you know I would like to begin to do I

00:51

guess talk a little bit about Gnosticism

00:54

and your interest in the subject I guess

00:57

the best place to start is to just you

00:59

know ask what got you started in the

01:01

first place into this subject well I'll

01:05

give you the the clue you know how life

01:07

is it gives us these clues which are not

01:12

so clear at the beginning but then if we

01:15

follow those clues in the course of life

01:16

they sometimes lead us into deep into

01:19

deep areas when I was about I think 16

01:22

or 17 I was working for a summer job

01:26

somewhere in in the United States and

01:29

around New York working as a waiter in a

01:33

summer resort and always looking for

01:37

things to read and I happen to come

01:40

across these books which belonged to the

01:42

Alexandria quartet by Laurence Darrell

01:46

and these were books that were quite

01:48

popular in in the 50s and 60s Laurence

01:51

Darrell was a British novelist and it

01:53

turns out that Durrell do you are reall

01:55

who was a close friend of Henry Miller

01:59

was interested in some esoteric matters

02:02

such as the Kabbalah and Gnosticism well

02:06

I was just a country kid I grew up in a

02:08

small town in in French of Maine a

02:10

little fishing village

02:12

very much of the kind of fishing

02:15

villages that you have you know in

02:17

Sweden and Norway that part of the world

02:19

a little village of eight or nine

02:21

hundred people i had no exposure to

02:25

esoterics or narcissism in that world

02:28

but by coming across these novels of

02:31

Lawrence Durrell or the Alexander

02:35

quartet

02:35

he spoke about Gnosticism and the

02:38

Gnostics and it it intrigued me terribly

02:41

although I know nothing about it so then

02:44

over the years I had I explored it more

02:47

and I eventually by the time I was in my

02:50

mid-20s was was deeply into the texts

02:54

and the mythology mm-hmm interesting so

02:58

how long have you been been writing

03:01

yourself on the subject I don't know

03:02

what which not in His image your I guess

03:05

that's your latest book which is that

03:07

your first one or no it's my last it's

03:09

my most recent book it came out November

03:11

of 2006 and behind not in his image

03:14

there was about 10 years 1996 to 2006 of

03:19

intense research on the Gnostic texts

03:23

here in Belgium near to Brussels where I

03:27

live sometimes there is a university

03:31

called the Catholic University of Leuven

03:33

Aluva sure yeah it's one of the oldest

03:36

universities in Europe it's a humanistic

03:39

it was a humanistic Center it's

03:42

connected with Erasmus the famous

03:45

philosopher and it so happens that at

03:48

the University of Leuven although it's

03:50

very Catholic there is a whole team of

03:52

gnostic scholars experts on Gnosticism

03:56

and the coptic language and also it so

03:59

happens experts on the the Dead Sea

04:02

Scrolls so I spent a good deal of time

04:05

doing my research there I wrote about

04:08

five drafts of not in His image before

04:11

the one that is printed now so I had 10

04:14

years of intense study and then before

04:17

that I I really have been involved with

04:19

Gnosticism since my mid-20s so it's

04:23

really been a lifetime effort I

04:25

understand you and of

04:26

fascinating you know I would like to

04:28

talk and get into and talk a little more

04:30

about the book here I guess we could

04:33

begin with the title itself not in his

04:35

image now you know is that intended to

04:38

scare the Christians away or to make

04:41

them pick up the book well it's

04:43

definitely a challenge they may choose

04:46

to run away from it or they may choose

04:49

to pick up the book and to consider why

04:53

someone would say that we are not made

04:58

in God's image which is what I'm saying

05:00

I'm saying that the story were told

05:03

which comes from the Bible Christian

05:06

Bible and the belief that we are in the

05:11

Western Christian world the belief that

05:13

is given to us that humanity is somehow

05:16

made in the image of the Creator which

05:19

is a male deity Jehovah is not so it is

05:25

not true and what I do in my book is I

05:29

expose that belief as a false belief and

05:33

I use Gnosticism because the Gnostic

05:36

texts contain many points which argue

05:40

against patriarchy against Christian

05:44

religion and precisely against that

05:47

concept that we are made in the image of

05:49

a father God now when we when we talk

05:53

about the Gnostic texts is this the bulk

05:57

of this is this that was found in in

06:00

Qumran the NAG Hammadi library or is

06:03

there any other sources excuse me from

06:06

outside there two kinds there are the

06:12

Coptic texts written in the Coptic

06:15

language that were found not at Qumran

06:17

that's where the Dead Sea scrolls were

06:19

found public texts were found at now

06:21

Hammadi in Egypt in the first week of

06:25

December 1945 hmm which happens to be

06:29

exactly what I was born and they are the

06:34

practically the only surviving originals

06:38

that we have I don't really think that

06:39

and our originals but they're close to

06:41

originals so we rely very strongly on

06:44

those and there are about 53 documents

06:47

in there but only about 30 of them are

06:49

of any value the others are very

06:50

fragmentary and so forth additional to

06:53

that there are the there are three other

06:57

Coptic documents that were discovered

06:59

before now Hammadi such as the Bruce

07:02

codex the askew codex and so forth and

07:05

then there are a number of Greek

07:08

language works which contain Gnostic

07:11

teachings but all in all I have to tell

07:13

you it's a pretty pitiful handful of

07:15

material the reason why and I want to

07:20

emphasize this to all the listeners the

07:22

reason why we have so little of the

07:25

original Gnostic material is not by

07:27

accident and it is not because of the

07:31

damage of time and having these these

07:33

manuscripts and texts and scrolls being

07:36

just riding away it is because they were

07:40

systematically destroyed over a camp in

07:44

a campaign that lasted hundreds of years

07:46

so there's very little that remains but

07:49

the NAG Hammadi documents that were

07:51

discovered in egypt are really the

07:53

principal focus right now of of gnostic

07:56

studies understand so have they all been

07:59

fully translated and if so who has done

08:02

the translation on these things shortly

08:05

after the naga hamadi documents were

08:08

found in 1945 their importance was

08:11

recognized and sometime later as i

08:15

explained in my book a team of scholars

08:18

from a Theological College in California

08:21

Claremont College undertook to do the

08:24

translations and this team was led by a

08:27

man named James Robertson and so what

08:30

they produced I think it was around 1976

08:33

was the so called naga hamadi library in

08:36

English and this is the principal book

08:40

that yet that your readers would go out

08:42

or anyone would go out and buy in a

08:44

bookstore to read to the Coptic

08:47

literature there have also been other

08:49

other translations by other scholars

08:53

but that's the primary translation

08:55

there's only one in English there's only

08:56

one in French I don't know if it's been

08:59

translated into into Swedish I'm sure it

09:02

has been into into German in other

09:04

languages I must warn however that these

09:07

translations are atrocious really

09:10

they're very bad some to some extent if

09:15

you look if you go into a bookstore I

09:17

would advise you to look through the NAG

09:20

Hammadi library in English before you

09:22

buy it because a great deal of it is

09:26

incomprehensible it's it's gibberish it

09:30

doesn't make any sense

09:31

and it doesn't really hang together at

09:35

all

09:37

so that is a difficult thing for those

09:40

people who want to approach Gnosticism I

09:42

must warn you that it's not an easy

09:44

subject and how did you kind of you know

09:48

manage to to differ between the

09:49

diversions and what one do you consider

09:51

to be a good one for people to I don't I

09:54

don't consider any of them to be really

09:56

good I mean there are there's another

09:58

translation by a scholar called latent

10:01

which is not particularly good either

10:03

I'll tell you what the problem is and

10:05

there are two problems basically one is

10:09

that these Coptic texts that were

10:12

relying on to know about Gnosticism were

10:15

written in Coptic which is not really a

10:18

true language it's a language that was

10:20

invented around a hundred BC in order to

10:25

translate hieroglyphics into a kind of

10:28

into another into a kind of shorthand in

10:32

other words at that time in Egypt the

10:34

whole civilization and religious culture

10:37

of Egypt had declined and there were

10:39

fewer and fewer priests who could read

10:41

hieroglyphics mm-hmm and so it became

10:43

necessary to convert hieroglyphics into

10:47

another language and Coptic was invented

10:49

for that purpose it's not a genuine

10:51

language it's very awkward it does not

10:55

express profound philosophical ideas the

10:58

constructions are very complicated and

11:01

even the scholars who are translating

11:04

these

11:05

texts point out that they're full of

11:07

grammatical errors they are difficult to

11:10

understand the the grammar is is is

11:15

complex and confusing so that's the

11:18

first part of the problem we have these

11:19

Gnostic texts written in a language that

11:22

is not ideal for transmitting profound

11:26

or mystical ideas okay the second

11:30

problem is one that I address in the

11:33

preface of my book not in His image I

11:35

point out in there that the prominent

11:39

Gnostic scholars today such as this

11:41

woman Elaine Pagels or listeners that

11:43

may have heard of her akashi's wrote the

11:45

Gnostic Gospels are religious scholars

11:48

there they have positions in

11:51

universities they're deeply respected

11:53

they've studied the coptic language

11:56

they've probably been to egypt and all

11:58

that but there is one thing that they

12:00

are not they are not practicing mystics

12:04

hmm so I would ask you how can someone

12:08

who is not a practicing mystic translate

12:12

mystical literature well obviously it's

12:15

going to be very difficult to understand

12:16

center and do the translation correctly

12:19

you know it is they're just going to be

12:21

guessing sure you know you would expect

12:23

if someone writes a book about golf you

12:26

would expect that they play golf hmm

12:28

and that they know that they know the

12:30

game if someone writes a book about

12:32

Antarctica the least that you expect is

12:35

that they went to Antarctica we're

12:37

amazed they spent some time there but

12:39

when you read the books and there are

12:42

many many of them now as you know

12:44

because Gnosticism has become widely

12:46

discussed sure to some extent because of

12:49

the da vinci code you know yeah when you

12:52

read these books by these experts I have

12:54

to tell you they are they may be expert

12:58

scholars but they are handling mystical

13:01

and esoteric material and they have no

13:03

experience of that field and so it's

13:07

very very difficult for them to

13:09

translate correctly what is he can you

13:14

read the language yourself have you done

13:17

your own translation

13:19

you've been able to kind of root out the

13:21

information from these texts well I

13:23

studied the NAG Hammadi library and all

13:26

the related literature that is in as I

13:28

said that's a nodding Coptic for about

13:31

25 years before I started to tackle the

13:34

Coptic and fortunately no I am NOT

13:37

proficient in Coptic I am NOT a Coptic

13:39

scholar

13:40

I cannot read Coptic fluently however I

13:43

did spend a lot of time at the

13:46

University of Leuven I did consult there

13:49

with experts in the Coptic language I

13:51

used the Coptic dictionaries which are

13:54

available there and I am able in a way

13:57

to kind of crawl through it if you know

14:00

what I mean I can crawl through it also

14:02

I should point out that Coptic which is

14:04

an invented language borrows its words

14:07

from Greek and so about one in every

14:11

four words in the Coptic language is

14:14

actually just a Greek word so and I know

14:18

Greek fairly well so I am able to piece

14:22

together and what I have done is I have

14:25

taken the translations that are

14:27

available from the experts and the

14:29

recognized scholars and in some cases I

14:32

have reworked them but I cannot

14:35

translate if you give me a paragraph of

14:37

Coptic I can't translate it right out

14:39

mmm

14:40

I can't do that but I have looked at the

14:43

language carefully and I've examined the

14:45

words and the structure and in that in

14:49

doing that I've taken the liberty to

14:51

modify some of the translations that are

14:54

available right right so I mean you said

14:57

that there weren't too many of these

14:59

documents so to speak around and I guess

15:03

that you have been going through all or

15:05

most of them then and if so is there any

15:08

kind of easy way to encapsulate what the

15:11

what the main idea or basic message of

15:13

these texts are yes that's what I very

15:17

much tried to do I've tried to sort of

15:20

distill the message and to get to say

15:26

the essential points of the message and

15:29

as you know meta History org

15:31

contains many articles which are

15:33

dedicated to that very aim in fact there

15:37

is for instance if you look go to the

15:39

site guide and where you have all the

15:40

things I've written in alphabetical

15:42

order there's an essay called

15:44

approaching Gnosticism in which I sort

15:47

of it's sort of it which I try to

15:49

introduce people to it and explain what

15:51

are the the central ideas of Gnosticism

15:54

and there are about three or four

15:57

central themes in the essential Gnostic

16:01

wisdom interesting and you know one

16:07

thing I want to kind of dive into a

16:09

little bit is to talk about if you know

16:13

let's talk about the three main

16:15

mainstream religions so to speak from

16:17

the brahmic tradition Christianity Islam

16:20

and Judaism do you think that your your

16:23

book is is very or is it very

16:26

threatening to these these structures

16:28

these religions well in some respects I

16:31

would consider it might be a deathblow

16:35

to those religions some people have

16:39

actually told me I've gotten some

16:42

responses to my book people have written

16:44

to me on the site some people have

16:46

actually told me that it completely

16:48

wiped out

16:49

the last bit of trust and faith they had

16:53

in those Abrahamic religions and allowed

16:57

them to completely liberate themselves

16:59

from those belief systems one example of

17:04

what I mean and they're taking me up

17:06

there are several aspects to that but

17:07

let me give you one example all three of

17:10

the Abrahamic religions of course as

17:12

people know today I think most people

17:14

understand are called Abrahamic because

17:17

they come from the same root the Bible

17:20

tells us about the patriarch Abraham and

17:23

of course the Jews recognized Abraham

17:25

the Christians and the Muslims all

17:27

recognize him as kind of the father of

17:29

their belief systems right now even

17:32

though these three belief systems have

17:33

various differences when you get to the

17:37

core of them there are

17:40

fundamental points which are identical

17:43

and all of these three religions are

17:46

what I call Redeemer religions that is

17:50

to say they all teach that humanity

17:53

needs a redeemer it needs a savior hmm

17:57

and that Savior is not a human being but

18:01

is more or less of a superhuman kind of

18:04

being who comes to earth and performs

18:08

some act to save humanity any in the

18:12

through the Hebrews that Savior is

18:14

called the Messiah hmm to the Christians

18:17

that Savior is the unique person as you

18:20

know Jesus Christ and to the Muslims

18:23

that saver is various Imams and various

18:26

figures that they male figures that they

18:30

or Muhammad the Prophet male figures

18:33

that they hold as messengers of God okay

18:37

right so all of that stuff which we are

18:41

taught in a Christian upbringing belongs

18:45

to what I call the redeemer complex we

18:48

are told that our lives

18:50

spiritually depend upon this Redeemer

18:54

who comes and just saves us and changes

18:59

the human condition what I show in my

19:02

book is that that redeemer complex is a

19:06

false belief system and that the

19:09

original Gnostics who were pagans

19:12

actually opposed and fought against that

19:15

belief system and that's one of the

19:17

reasons why they were eliminated by the

19:18

Christians mmm-hmm so what you're saying

19:22

here also is that this because of the

19:25

nature of how these three main streams

19:28

are sort of speak religions or structure

19:31

around this concept that this is also

19:37

could we say that this is also the root

19:40

cause for why things today are the way

19:43

they are so bad so to speak the this

19:45

basic philosophy or idea that someone

19:48

else from outside is always going to

19:50

come and save us that we ourselves can't

19:52

do it is that correct

19:54

absolutely.i trace the in my book the

19:58

the development of this belief system

20:00

and I point out where this belief system

20:03

has brought us today the the the fact

20:07

that a great part of humanity you know

20:10

how many people embrace these three

20:12

religions you know millions right in

20:15

fact that a great part of humanity make

20:17

themselves dependent on this external

20:23

Savior figure or the greater part of

20:27

humanity believe that the world is ruled

20:29

and judged by what I call an off planet

20:32

father God has brought humanity it has

20:37

ruined our own moral capacities it has

20:40

destroyed our imagination and it has

20:42

undermined our capacity to be

20:45

responsible for our own evolution that's

20:48

basically as you know the argument in my

20:50

book hmm so would you say that this is

20:53

because of manipulation or is this

20:56

because of something more psychological

20:59

in nature or even some kind of well

21:02

actually manipulation on a deeper level

21:04

either biological or psychological down

21:06

level on on on humanity or on humans

21:09

well it's a combination of a couple of

21:12

things henrik i think there is a big

21:14

factor of manipulation in there i'll

21:16

give you an example which i think is

21:18

fairly obvious everyone knows that the

21:22

united states was supposed to have been

21:25

founded we're on a division of church

21:28

and state you know hmm on a division of

21:31

government and religion as a matter of

21:34

fact the founding fathers of America had

21:36

it had a difficult time doing that they

21:38

wanted to separate religion and

21:41

government but the word god is of course

21:43

mentioned in the Constitution and so

21:45

forth but generally speaking presidents

21:49

of the United States have been religious

21:52

man they've been Christians but they

21:53

haven't necessarily made a big point of

21:56

that however look at George Bush and

22:00

look at the way that he has used

22:02

religion and Christianity as part of his

22:05

political agenda sure okay

22:07

so that's a very clear example of how

22:10

this this belief system can be used to

22:14

manipulate people to make them afraid

22:16

and to say well you're afraid but let

22:20

your government take care of you and

22:21

don't forget God is on our side

22:23

mmm you know it sounds terribly

22:26

simplistic but it works for a lot of

22:30

people so there is a factor of of

22:33

manipulation and not just on a

22:35

superficial level I think it goes into

22:37

some very weird things on the other hand

22:40

though I would add that I think part of

22:43

the problem comes from human nature you

22:46

know we are a vulnerable species because

22:48

we have language and imagination and

22:51

we're very gullible children will

22:54

generally believe the stories that

22:56

adults tell them why because children

23:00

haven't yet developed critical thinking

23:03

and they have very powerful imaginations

23:06

that's the nature of being a child isn't

23:09

it

23:09

and so the part of the problem is that

23:12

in our species with its imaginative

23:15

faculties and its gift for language and

23:18

its need for stories it's very

23:21

vulnerable to accept the stories that

23:24

are told to it until it reaches the

23:26

point where it gains critical thinking

23:28

and what what I see today in which is

23:33

very encouraging to me is that in in the

23:37

younger generation and in people like

23:39

you and those who are who are doing

23:42

websites like yours I see critical

23:47

thinking I see them saying well wait a

23:50

minute

23:51

you know are we going to buy this story

23:53

are we going to go along with this

23:55

belief and that's a button so wearing

23:58

involved sort of in a battle here you

24:01

know the battle is to get back to the

24:03

truth and back to the truth of humanity

24:07

and who we are and what the earth is and

24:10

in order to do that we have to strip off

24:12

a lot of the beliefs and stories that

24:14

have been laid on us so it's a it's a

24:17

problem that's intrinsic to human nature

24:19

I think

24:20

I hope I'm making myself clear on that

24:22

definitely I'm sure I'm following you're

24:25

there right you know the question also

24:28

is that that arises how come that this

24:31

particular I guess religion or version

24:34

of of the creation or or however however

24:38

we want to term it have become so

24:40

successful successful what I'm what I'm

24:42

getting at is that this seems to be you

24:44

know a lot of different creation stories

24:46

out there of course we should not forget

24:48

that you know Hinduism and Buddhism of

24:50

course it's you know again huge

24:51

religions that also you know plays into

24:54

this of course but if we just focused

24:56

right now on Christianity Islam and

24:57

Judaism is there anything in your kind

25:00

of work that hints towards why these

25:03

have become so successful so to speak

25:05

absolutely absolutely that's a that's a

25:08

difficult question you raise it's a

25:11

question that comes up in in our minds

25:13

we can't avoid it and I I certainly

25:16

can't answer it adequately living in

25:18

this interview but I'll say that my

25:20

entire book is focused on answering that

25:23

question and basically what I say is

25:27

that in large measure the Redeemer

25:30

religion of the Abrahamic faith has

25:37

succeeded because it has been imposed it

25:41

has been imposing it still is imposed it

25:44

has been imposed by violence it has been

25:46

imposed by brainwashing it has been

25:49

imposed by threats and we tend to forget

25:54

today because we don't necessarily go to

25:58

church and hear a preacher telling us

26:02

that we're going to be thrown into the

26:04

fires of hell and burned and tortured if

26:06

we don't obey the 10 commandments we

26:08

think that's a bit ridiculous maybe

26:10

today but as a matter of fact that is a

26:13

that has been enforced on people all

26:17

around the world for very many centuries

26:19

so one of the reasons why that belief

26:22

system has succeeded is because it has

26:24

been accompanied by it has been

26:28

implanted by violence and so you know

26:33

and there are other

26:34

as well but to get into them is a little

26:36

more complicated it has to do with what

26:38

at this matter that I call the victim

26:40

perpetrator syndrome the victim

26:43

perpetrator bond which is described at

26:46

length in my book as well mmm yeah it

26:48

sounds interesting you know what one

26:50

thing that comes to mind also that you

26:52

mentioned you know brainwashing and the

26:55

question is if there is kind of should I

26:58

put it something within the text itself

27:01

beyond the fact that you know of course

27:03

it's a the Bible is a very if we just

27:05

talk about the Bible now the Christian

27:07

faith it's a very long book there's so

27:12

much information in there and obviously

27:14

you know it's it's it's impossible to

27:17

keep track on it all so to speak and

27:19

that's that's why still you know almost

27:21

what is it seven hundred years later

27:23

we're still you know scholars are

27:25

picking it apart and trying to

27:27

understand it and so forth so there's a

27:28

lot of text in there obviously but do

27:31

you think there could be something

27:32

within the language itself that actually

27:34

makes people should I put it actually

27:38

you know become more or manipulated I

27:42

should say by the text itself in some

27:45

way do you think that's an excellent

27:46

question and my answer would be yes and

27:48

I can tell you exactly what what it is

27:52

two things first of all consider the the

27:56

beginning of it because the the power of

27:58

the story in the Bible begins with a

28:01

myth of creation and it gets you it gets

28:04

you gets into the human mind right at

28:08

the beginning because the story of the

28:10

myth of creation and Genesis is a story

28:13

about sin and guilt because we see the

28:18

parent Adam and Eve who represent the

28:20

human race and we see them sinning and

28:22

doing something disobeying God and then

28:25

we see them punished now that story of

28:29

sin and punishment and guilt lodges

28:32

immediately in the human psyche one of

28:35

the things about human beings and you

28:38

don't have to be a psychologist to

28:39

understand this is that we are very

28:42

susceptible to guilt you see this

28:46

day in the manipulations of family

28:48

relations in the manipulations of

28:50

politicians if you want someone to do

28:53

what you want you make them feel guilty

28:55

and then you can get them to do it so

28:59

insofar as them the founding myth of the

29:03

Bible presents a story of guilt it

29:07

implants itself already into our psyche

29:10

as a canoe brainwashing tool the second

29:15

thing is that the main character of the

29:18

Old Testament and to a certain extent

29:20

even the New Testament the main

29:22

character is not a human being but a

29:24

deity Jehovah Yahweh the Father God that

29:28

is actually the main character of the

29:30

Bible and in the New Testament a second

29:34

character is added which is Jesus Christ

29:36

who is the son of that deity and in

29:39

certain respects identified with him as

29:42

well now the way that Jehovah behaves in

29:48

the Bible is classically the behavior of

29:53

a schizophrenic hmm that is to say

29:55

Jehovah promises his chosen people the

30:00

Jews to treat them better than anyone

30:02

else in the world to favor them and to

30:05

reward them and at the same time he

30:08

torments and tortures them this is very

30:11

clear in the events that happened in the

30:13

new in the Old Testament and so there

30:16

you have the second factor Henrick the

30:18

second factor is known to psychologists

30:23

who study cults and cult literature one

30:26

of the secrets of a cult of a cult

30:29

leader or cult guru is that he will put

30:31

his followers in a schizophrenic State

30:34

he will tell them that they are that

30:37

they are special he will give them

30:40

special treatment and then he will turn

30:42

around in debase and humiliate them this

30:44

is a well-known psychological technique

30:46

that occurs in cults right well you find

30:50

that very same technique operating in

30:54

the text of the Bible so those are two

30:56

reasons guilt

30:58

schizophrenic behavior are two very

31:02

powerful tools for controlling the human

31:05

mind and their inherent to the way the

31:07

Bible work and and also study mind

31:11

control knows that trauma is a huge you

31:14

know technique so to speak in order to

31:17

even shatter that the shatter the mind

31:19

or the the personality of an individual

31:22

you know indeed it is indeed it is

31:24

trauma shatters the mind we know that

31:27

this that there are evil people on the

31:29

planet who study these things

31:31

there's MKULTRA there's all the

31:33

mind-control experiments that have been

31:35

going on for the last 50 years that are

31:37

continuing now and we're learning a

31:40

little bit about them with the Freedom

31:41

of Information Act that has released

31:44

certain documents we understand now that

31:47

by subjecting someone to trauma and

31:49

scaring them then you can then break up

31:52

their personality and you can control

31:54

the fragments of their personality much

31:56

more easily than you can control the

31:58

whole person and I guess one could say

32:01

that the events that take place in our

32:03

world today with with you know we have

32:06

minor traumas here and there all the

32:07

time either if you know we turn on the

32:10

news or whatever but if we really think

32:12

about that we could basically say that

32:14

what is going on in effect is a form of

32:16

mind control but not the kind of mind

32:19

control will you you know go into dark

32:20

room and get you know subjected to

32:23

electric shocks or whatnot but a very

32:24

kind of subtle psychological mind

32:26

control exactly I believe that is so

32:29

today and I believe that the the most

32:32

ancient and long-term example we have of

32:36

this mind control is in is the Bible the

32:39

Bible is a tool for social and spiritual

32:43

control and manipulation it is not a

32:46

revelation of spirituality I defy you to

32:50

find in the Christian Bible in the old

32:52

or New Testament one single teaching

32:55

about the nature of consciousness

32:58

there's nothing about the nature of

33:00

consciousness in the Bible if you are if

33:03

you would agree with me or if you would

33:05

go along with me that a true spiritual

33:07

teaching a true

33:10

spiritual philosophy tells us something

33:12

about consciousness what consciousness

33:14

is and how it works which is what

33:17

Buddhism does right mmm

33:18

then you would have to go and turn to

33:21

the Bible and say there's nothing

33:22

spiritual in Bible it doesn't teach you

33:24

about how the mind works doesn't teach

33:26

about love it presents a few platitudes

33:29

about love but it doesn't really teach

33:32

anything it's an actually a very

33:34

powerful behavioural control tool and

33:38

it's the oldest tool and it's still

33:40

being used today what do you think about

33:44

the idea that have has been laid forth

33:46

you know recently with the zeitgeist

33:50

movie and others this goes way back of

33:52

course to acharya s and jordan maxwell

33:56

and others have been studying this idea

33:58

that the Christian version sort of speak

34:02

with Jesus and all this actually is

34:04

based on a much older religion meaning

34:06

of we can type right back even all the

34:08

way back to Egypt and maybe further than

34:10

that the sun-god and all of this said

34:13

there's many correlations between

34:15

between ancient religions and that the

34:18

more modern one what do you think about

34:19

an idea like that

34:20

well I you know I'm a comparative

34:23

mythologist that's kind of been my role

34:25

in life so I've studied all the myths of

34:27

different cultures and compared them and

34:29

I agree with the general view of the

34:34

zeitgeist film there are I think there

34:36

are some inaccuracies in there but I

34:37

agree with the general view that there's

34:41

hardly anything original in Christianity

34:43

and that the whole figure of Jesus

34:46

Christ and the Savior born of a virgin

34:48

on the windows all systems of what was

34:49

stolen outright from a previously

34:53

existing pagan pagan beliefs and pagan

34:57

religions from the polytheistic

35:00

religions of nature I totally agree on

35:03

that but I had a a point that the

35:06

zeitgeist movie doesn't make and that is

35:09

that even though Christianity and the

35:12

figure of Jesus Christ was constructed

35:14

from these pagan materials

35:16

it was constructed into something that

35:19

has no equivalent in paganism

35:22

there is no sacrifice to Redeemer in

35:26

paganism there is no such figure if you

35:30

look at it the idea of the sacrificed

35:32

Redeemer as and we started talking about

35:34

to set the beginning of the talk who is

35:37

you know whom we depend on for our

35:40

salvation is a unique element in the

35:44

Christian belief system what about the

35:47

hammock sure what about the all the

35:51

crucified saviors so to speak I think

35:52

there are people have counted them and

35:54

match up to like 13 or 16 or something

35:57

like that and traces back to two older

35:59

religions I don't know you're saying

36:01

that that's not not the case or well

36:03

there may be crucified saviors there may

36:05

be images of crucified saviors in the

36:07

pagan religions but the pagan religions

36:09

did not teach that the crucified saviors

36:13

be at Dionysus or Osiris or whatever

36:17

were actually performing a deed that was

36:21

going to save or rescue the human race

36:27

that is not stated in those belief

36:30

systems that's the difference you see

36:32

mmm there's a similarity of the myths

36:35

and you have to be very careful about

36:36

that because mythical material is is

36:38

very tricky stuff right that there's a

36:41

similarity of the myths but the message

36:43

is entirely different

36:44

I know of no pagan Egyptian Scandinavian

36:51

Polynesian Aztec belief in a crucified

36:58

Savior who dies for for the love of the

37:02

world in order to do something that that

37:05

helps humanity rescue itself from sin

37:08

that that idea is completely unique to

37:11

the Abrahamic religions and is not found

37:15

in the pagan religions even though there

37:17

are mythical parallels you mentioned

37:20

something there that I find very

37:21

interesting and I can't I cannot wrap my

37:24

head around that idea but many in many

37:27

cases I hear many Christians say that

37:29

you know in order for basically you know

37:32

save humanity God demands a sacrifice

37:35

basic

37:38

and he you know he demands to something

37:40

someone must be sacrificed or or else

37:42

you know all the humanity bit sacrifice

37:44

but now Jesus has stepped in and has

37:46

taken the place of all you know all of

37:48

that and now we can only all we have to

37:51

do is just believe in Jesus Christ and

37:53

then he will you know have have taken on

37:55

the role so to speak of being that

37:57

sacrifice but you know why again if we

38:01

go back to the idea that you expressed

38:02

that that this is a schizophrenic God so

38:04

to speak Yahweh I mean why does a God

38:08

demand a sacrifice what is the is there

38:11

a clear message about that in the Bible

38:13

or anywhere else that you've been you

38:15

know been able to find no no this is the

38:18

difficult thing and this is where a

38:19

scholar like me has to you know where

38:22

his brains out over years to try to get

38:25

to the core of this because of the core

38:28

of it really my friend is insanity it's

38:31

really insane to believe that a God of

38:34

love would demand sacrifice of any kind

38:38

any kind whatsoever and so I delved in

38:42

my book into why is this belief so

38:45

powerful why do so many people accept

38:47

this belief you know as you say you

38:49

can't get your head around him it's very

38:51

difficult to get your head around it

38:53

when right believe me yeah but I think

38:55

that in my book I believe and it has to

38:58

be judged by the people that read it I

38:59

believe that I have actually gotten to

39:02

the dirty secret at the bottom of that

39:05

whole belief system that is about the

39:08

glorification of the victim yeah very

39:15

interesting indeed to ponder ponder

39:17

Christ is the divine victim and we can

39:21

all be victims can't we sure we can all

39:24

be victims life is not safe life is

39:26

scary society can be dangerous it can be

39:30

uncertain we can be victims women can be

39:32

raped men can be raped

39:34

children can be molested we can be

39:36

robbed we can be victims and so we

39:40

humans are faced with this question on a

39:42

human level how do I deal with

39:47

victimhood but if it happens to me or if

39:51

it happens to somebody else how do I

39:52

deal with it and and my point is we need

39:56

to come to the solution to that question

39:58

out of our own humanity but that's not

40:02

what's been done what's been done is

40:04

we've been given a false solution to

40:06

that question right we've been given a

40:09

solution that says oh wait wait there is

40:11

a divine victim and he was sent by God

40:15

in order to save all of you

40:17

from victim victimization well first of

40:21

all that's a lie

40:21

nobody can save you from victimization

40:23

there is no guarantee that you will not

40:27

be the victim of somebody or something

40:29

you could be murdered you know sure any

40:32

of us and so it is in the human failure

40:36

this is I would put it this way to sum

40:38

it up the human failure to come to terms

40:41

with victimhood and suffering has caused

40:45

a pathology and that pathology glorifies

40:49

the victim and glorifies suffering

40:51

mm-hmm and that is the sick pathology of

40:54

the Abrahamic religions and we

40:57

consequently also then identify with

41:00

that victim sort of speaking we see

41:03

maybe even a part of ourselves in him

41:06

meaning that we can see our own

41:07

suffering that this is almost a divine

41:09

thing or this is something that is you

41:12

know it's almost as you say - it's a

41:14

virtue in that right well the virtue in

41:17

that is that it it it it looks like a

41:21

very good thing at first because you

41:24

could say well this divine victim the

41:26

figure of the divine victim who dies for

41:28

our sins allows us to handle our own

41:31

suffering right it might look like a

41:34

good thing but when you look at it more

41:36

closely it's not a good thing at all

41:40

because what it means is that we accept

41:44

victimization we allow it we accept it

41:48

we we we accept the belief that

41:52

suffering has a redemptive value to

41:56

understand that sentence suffering has a

41:58

redemptive value now you

41:59

to me before a very good question and

42:01

everyone who's ever looked into this

42:03

subject and investigated it has

42:07

encountered this this fact that comes up

42:09

in the zeitgeist movie or wait a minute

42:11

Jesus was a crucified Savior but there

42:13

were many crucified God but there were

42:16

many other crucified gods you know so

42:18

Jesus was taken from those other

42:20

crucified gods that's true but what is

42:22

not true is that in the pagan myth of

42:26

the crucified gods they do not claim

42:29

that suffering has a redemptive value

42:33

but Christianity claims that so it means

42:36

to say you're suffering what probably

42:38

has a divine purpose and that opens the

42:43

door for some very very evil

42:45

manipulation well it does so opens the

42:47

door for basically what I consider at

42:50

this point to be secret societies within

42:53

you know wrapped within the religious

42:55

structure basically - well slowly take

42:59

control of the planet itself basically

43:01

and and now you know all all of

43:04

humanity's is stuck between these

43:06

different belief systems that even you

43:09

know fight among themselves now in order

43:11

to you know gain more ground so to speak

43:12

I can't wait until your film is done

43:16

I've seen the trailer I want to see the

43:19

whole thing because I think there are

43:21

quite a few parallels strong parallels

43:24

between the sonarak your investigation

43:29

and my analysis in my book I agree with

43:34

you that if you can look at it this way

43:38

if you can affect people and manipulate

43:40

them in their perception of suffering

43:43

then you can manipulate them totally if

43:48

you can take away from them the

43:50

responsibility to deal with their

43:53

suffering then you make them powerless

43:56

and these are the two things that these

43:59

hidden controllers are attempting to do

44:01

and they work through these religions

44:04

that's their cover they use these

44:06

religions as cover

44:07

mm-hmm yeah exactly and I and I should

44:10

point out you mentioned the movie

44:12

Architects of control is featured you

44:16

know Michel Serena's featured in that

44:17

and then it's his brilliant scholarship

44:19

that is focused that we focus upon in

44:22

the movie but yeah anyway that's that's

44:25

how it is you know I want to in the last

44:29

few minutes here that we have left in

44:31

the first segment and then we're going

44:32

to dive in a little bit deeper and talk

44:35

more about the the our concern and the

44:39

basically ET connection sort of speak to

44:42

all the things that we have spoken about

44:43

and that is going to be fascinating but

44:45

I do want to talk a little bit about

44:47

just the last few minutes here about

44:48

sacred ecology this is one of the

44:50

phrases in your subtitle of your book

44:53

what is it that you mean by by sacred

44:56

ecology can you you know boil that down

44:58

for us so to speak a little bit sure

45:00

sacred ecology is the is the system of

45:07

values the values that come from the

45:11

awareness that the earth is a Divine

45:14

Being

45:15

the earth is a sacred being alive and

45:20

intelligent and that is actually what

45:24

the Gnostics taught and what the

45:27

Christians wanted to destroy because in

45:31

the Abrahamic religions we are given a

45:36

different belief we are told that the

45:38

earth is the creation the handiwork of a

45:40

father God who is somewhere who knows

45:43

we're off planet outer space who knows

45:47

where of a male God alone creates the

45:50

earth like an object like a plate but

45:53

Gnostic mythology said no the earth is

45:57

the transformation of a divine being of

45:59

feminine being the goddess Sophia which

46:02

means wisdom and so sacred ecology is

46:04

our is every individuals relationship to

46:08

that divine being who is the

46:10

intelligence of the earth mmm

46:12

fascinating and thus do you go and wear

46:17

into your scholarship because I know

46:19

there's a if I'm right here a connection

46:21

between ecology meaning that

46:25

what are called entheogens there's have

46:28

been reflects the sacred mushroom and

46:30

the cross by right Oh what was is not

46:33

your Allegro right right basically do

46:35

you go into that a little bit yes I do

46:37

because a lot of my book is dedicated to

46:40

a description you know my book is about

46:42

Europe about the spiritual history of

46:44

Europe and the tragedy of Europe which

46:46

includes Scandinavian countries as well

46:48

it's about the pagan mysteries of Europe

46:51

the great network of schools of pagan

46:54

wisdom and shamanism that were destroyed

46:56

and wiped out by the rise of

46:59

Christianity they didn't fade out they

47:01

just didn't go away because Christianity

47:03

was a better idea

47:04

they were violently suppressed and what

47:07

I show in these in my review of the

47:10

mysteries as they're called the the

47:12

spiritual traumatic schools of ancient

47:16

Europe is that they used entheogenic

47:19

practices in order to communicate with

47:22

the living intelligence of the earth so

47:24

there is a huge entheogenic or

47:26

psychedelic factor in the story that I'm

47:30

telling and in the new Gnosticism that

47:32

I'm proposing mm-hmm

47:34

fascinating you know I want to pop out

47:38

our last question here and this is you

47:40

know regarding the idea that you know I

47:43

basically won't ask you if you

47:44

personally believe that the religious

47:47

structure that is it is you know formed

47:50

right now needs to be removed taken

47:54

apart broken down you know disintegrated

47:57

basically it's not the case yes I

47:59

believe that if humanity is to survive

48:02

not only physically but if we are to

48:05

preserve our humanity the humanity in

48:07

our hearts that which makes us human we

48:11

must absolutely defy those religions and

48:15

and liberate ourselves some individuals

48:18

must totally liberate themselves from

48:20

those belief systems and can you do that

48:24

in any way without I mean this obviously

48:27

is gonna you know

48:29

you know furious many people are going

48:33

to be fewer is about this that are

48:34

rarely very deep into the different

48:36

religions that we've been talking about

48:38

here and especially then Christianity

48:40

also is there a way to to you know do

48:44

that go about breaking that down without

48:46

causing well basically start at war I

48:48

guess what's your idea about that well

48:52

who's gonna start the war you know I

48:54

think if there's going to be a war the

48:56

war is going to come from the Christians

48:57

they've been waging war on people who

48:59

don't agree with their beliefs for a

49:01

long time sure they burn hundreds of

49:03

thousands of shamans and witches in

49:05

Europe they destroyed the Gnostics they

49:08

murdered the Gnostics destroyed their

49:09

temples burned their books the Gnostics

49:12

and the people who adhere to the belief

49:15

system that I that I propose the belief

49:18

system of Sophia and sacred ecology they

49:22

didn't they didn't destroy the

49:24

Christians they didn't make war on the

49:25

Christians so I think it's an

49:28

ideological war and I think it's it's a

49:32

it's a war of liberation for those

49:34

people who see that Christianity and the

49:37

Savior myth is sick and we have to heal

49:41

ourselves from that sickness but to to

49:45

you know if if something new would come

49:47

in and take its place so to speak with

49:51

the only way to do and I mean what I'm

49:53

getting it here is I'm anyway you know

49:56

yeah endorsing violence or anything like

49:58

that what I'm just what I mean is just

50:00

that I mean how the heck can can

50:03

religion disappear off the face of the

50:06

plant without causing terrible conflict

50:08

and upheaval you know it is going to

50:11

cause terrible conflict in our people

50:13

and I think that what will replace that

50:15

religion what could replace that

50:17

religion will not take the form of

50:19

religion so it's not going to be a case

50:22

of a new religion arising and going to

50:26

war with the existing religions I think

50:28

that the existing religions Christianity

50:30

Judaism and Islam are going to destroy

50:33

themselves aren't they doing that and

50:37

they've been also doing it before our

50:38

very eyes I mean I don't think that's a

50:40

prophetic statement is it

50:41

no I think they're gonna destroy

50:43

themselves by division by confusion by

50:46

religious hatred by sectarian look look

50:50

at the Sunnis and the Shiites in Islam

50:51

destroying each other sure and I think

50:54

that the people who want to follow

50:56

another path free of religion and to go

50:59

into a high higher spirituality which I

51:01

call the mystical the mystical

51:04

spirituality of the earth itself you

51:05

might say go back into true paganism

51:09

animism the worship of the life force

51:11

are going to just withdraw they're not

51:14

going to get into a fight with those

51:15

people there's no point in fighting with

51:17

if they're not you know you can't argue

51:19

with them they won't reason with you

51:21

let's see what you mean so so this could

51:23

be a way that we would go about this or

51:28

that you know basically people who are

51:30

interested and want to find out more

51:32

because of all the information that is

51:34

available now or perhaps slowly going to

51:36

you know walk away from the old

51:38

structure and this going to transmute or

51:40

transform into something new and in

51:42

between there that doesn't mean that

51:43

there will be any any kind of fighting

51:46

going on right their own worst enemies

51:50

but the other people who turn their

51:53

backs on those belief systems and

51:54

liberate themselves within I think

51:57

recognize each other they be attracted

51:59

to each other they recognize each other

52:01

and they form groups kind of like cells

52:03

small groups you know it's not about

52:06

creating a new institutional monolithic

52:09

religion it's more or less about local

52:16

groups of people getting together and

52:19

exploring a different kind of

52:21

spirituality that is free of those of

52:23

those beliefs free of those of those

52:25

passes of that pathology of the victim

52:28

and the perpetrator hmm big challenge

52:31

but I think it's already happening and I

52:33

think it is happening and and I'm sure

52:35

that some of the people who are

52:36

listening to this while some may be

52:38

screaming you know and wanting to come

52:40

find me and burn me at the stake others

52:43

may be nodding their heads and saying

52:45

well maybe the guy sure well exactly I

52:50

mean in the end I mean I'm for the idea

52:53

that we should be able to come to

52:55

our own conclusions and based on the

52:57

information and material out there we

52:58

should make up our own picture of the

53:01

world and I don't feel that we have been

53:04

they sort of speak winning quotes there

53:06

haven't been playing fair meaning that

53:08

there is a an indoctrination process

53:10

going on from from from day one when

53:12

we're born into this system and in order

53:14

for us to make that the correct picture

53:17

of the world we need to first actually

53:18

break out from that and if that means

53:20

walking away from you know any kind of

53:22

organized religion so--but that's that's

53:25

the case and that's my commitment that's

53:27

what it means and many many young people

53:29

are doing it you know should you just

53:31

even look on YouTube which you know may

53:33

or not be a good example but it is a

53:35

social phenomenon so great oh great

53:37

there's an enormous atheist movement on

53:39

YouTube there's an enormous movement of

53:42

young people who are saying I don't buy

53:44

it you know I'm not I'm not going on

53:46

step further with any of these beliefs

53:49

so I think that this is the moment now

53:52

for that division to occur but I don't

53:54

see the people who who liberate

53:57

themselves from those religions as as

53:59

getting into getting into trouble with

54:03

the people I see them as just you know

54:05

dropping out and the people who adhere

54:09

to those religions the Jews the

54:10

Christians and the Muslims or can all

54:12

destroy each other

54:13

as they're obviously doing what's your

54:16

take take on the term the archons well

54:20

there are two ways to define the term

54:23

and you're absolutely right and

54:25

receiving before we talked about it's

54:27

very very important to present as clear

54:29

a definition of this term in the nost as

54:32

Gnostics understood it as possible

54:34

because it it's a profoundly important

54:36

term in the gnostic teachings and it

54:38

leads us into some some really profound

54:41

areas in the first place the word our

54:44

corn is a greek word that was very

54:46

common back in in the days of Jesus

54:50

Christ back in in in 2,000 years ago and

54:54

it simply meant governor the or like the

54:57

governor of a province was the Archon

55:00

mm-hm so that's what it meant in Greek

55:03

in in a mundane sense but there are

55:06

two ways to understand the word Archon

55:09

if you want to approach it as the

55:14

Gnostics did in the first place the

55:17

archons an Archon is a being that

55:20

appears in the gnostic creation myth the

55:23

Gnostics took this word Archon out of

55:25

its Monday in context and they used it

55:27

to describe a certain kind of cosmic

55:30

entity you see the Gnostics had a

55:34

creation myth and this is the story of

55:37

the divine Sophia a goddess who turned

55:40

into the earth now on meta history org

55:43

you'll find a lot about this story and

55:45

I've told this story in nine in nine

55:48

episodes I also tell it in my book in

55:50

nine episodes in a sense I reconstructed

55:52

this myth in this myth which is too long

55:56

to go into here there is an episode

55:58

where the archons appear in the cosmic

56:01

order and they are called archons

56:04

because the word comes from the greek

56:06

root RK which means first or in the

56:10

beginning and so what the Gnostics meant

56:13

was that when our solar system was

56:15

forming before the earth itself actually

56:19

took the form it has today certain

56:22

beings appeared in our solar system

56:23

before the earth was formed that's why

56:26

they're called archons they came first

56:28

and these beings are kind of described

56:31

as a and inorganic species and they

56:36

inhabit the solar system but they do not

56:38

inhabit the earth so that's how the

56:42

archons are described in the gnostic

56:43

mythology if you go to the myth and read

56:48

the myth and study the myth which is

56:49

absolutely fascinating and it's a unique

56:51

myth the second part of the definition

56:54

which I think might be helpful is this

56:58

the archons who are also trans scholars

57:03

translate the word as rulers or

57:05

authorities the archons are play a great

57:10

role in the NAG Hammadi materials I

57:13

would say that of the surviving naga

57:15

hamadi materials the Coptic materials

57:18

maybe 20% or better of the tax deal with

57:25

these entities and they not only

57:27

describe them in the cosmic sense how

57:30

they emerged at the creation of our

57:32

solar system before the earth was formed

57:34

as I just described but they also

57:36

describe them in another very disturbing

57:38

way there are passages in certain

57:42

Gnostic texts which resemble 100 percent

57:46

close encounters with extraterrestrial

57:49

beings hmm and I've quoted these on the

57:53

meta history site and there's a great

57:55

deal of material about this on the mid

57:57

history site and so the second part of

58:00

the definition this is very important

58:03

this is drawn directly from the Coptic

58:06

tax archons are extraterrestrial

58:10

entities and they are like psychic

58:13

intruders they intrude upon humanity

58:16

they intrude upon the human race but

58:19

because they cannot they can't invade

58:21

the earth as such because they cannot

58:23

live in the biosphere of the earth they

58:26

live in the solar system they are

58:27

inorganic beings but because they cannot

58:30

invade the earth they tend to invade our

58:33

minds they are entities that can reach

58:36

us you might say inter-dimensionally or

58:40

through a psychic and telepathic level

58:42

and all this is described quite vividly

58:45

in the Gnostic materials and so it's

58:49

quite remarkable if you make the

58:51

parallel with grey ETS and Close

58:56

Encounters if you if you want to make

58:59

that parallel I think there's a great

59:01

deal of evidence that that is a good

59:04

parallel and it's a convincing parallel

59:06

and I've I've written about that a great

59:09

deal as you know that's absolutely

59:11

fascinating I'm so intrigued by that

59:13

idea and let's go into that a little bit

59:16

later I won't ask you first though are

59:18

there kind of any definition in the text

59:23

of what the archons kind of are doing

59:25

what what their purpose or or what their

59:28

goals are why are there or they're just

59:30

around the plan

59:31

earth or everywhere in the universe is

59:33

there any kind of definition of that yes

59:35

there is there is amazingly precise

59:38

definitions of this really and I think

59:41

that if I would speak of my own work as

59:44

a scholar and my attempt to make Gnostic

59:48

writings you know accessible to people

59:50

and tend to to make them understandable

59:55

this is one of the most important points

59:57

that I have worked on you know no other

60:01

scholar you know I'm a self-taught

60:03

scholar I don't work with the University

60:05

or anything I'm responsible to no one

60:06

but myself and I'm responsible to my

60:09

sense of the truth okay yeah well no

60:13

other scholar dares to say anything

60:16

about this arc on material you can take

60:19

a book on the most famous book about

60:22

Gnosticism is the Gnostic Gospels by

60:25

Elaine Pagels mmm-hmm was published I

60:27

think 24 years ago it's still in print

60:29

widely read the word Archon is not in

60:32

the index really yeah

60:34

even though it's obvious from reading

60:37

the text that the archons were a deep

60:40

concern for the Gnostics scholars will

60:44

not have anything to do with this

60:46

because it is it freaks them out and it

60:49

also looks very much like parapsychology

60:54

and you know UFO et materials and of

60:59

course as scholars they wouldn't dare

61:01

touch that because it would completely

61:02

ruin their reputation that's that's

61:04

unfortunately right it's unfortunately

61:07

the case so now I'm going to answer your

61:08

question it is remarkable that we find

61:12

in the NARC ahmadi texts an explicit

61:16

description not only of the origin of

61:18

these extraterrestrial archons but of

61:21

their purposes of the way they operate

61:23

of their methods and of their tactics in

61:27

regard to the human species it's

61:30

remarkable and there are a couple of

61:32

points that I would just make and then

61:33

we'll explore it more based on your

61:35

questions one of the things the nonstick

61:38

materials warned us about these entities

61:41

there's a clear warning

61:44

that these entities endanger the human

61:46

species because they can lead us astray

61:48

from our proper course of evolution

61:51

their deviant they can deviate us and

61:55

they do this in two ways one is through

61:58

the factor of what is called error or

62:00

plan a in Greek plenty by the way is the

62:03

root of the word planet hmm so error is

62:09

one of the ways that they that the

62:11

archons mislead us and that is when we

62:14

we are beings who need to think and plan

62:17

things in advance that is the nature of

62:20

our species we stand out from other

62:22

animals because we have planning

62:24

abilities we can make models and then we

62:27

can follow those models and we can

62:30

actually create things from those models

62:32

right which other species cannot do to

62:35

the and the Gnostics warned that when we

62:38

make mistakes in that process if we do

62:41

not correct those mistakes the archons

62:43

will enter our minds and they will use

62:46

those mistakes to steer us away from the

62:49

earth and to steer us away from our true

62:51

path so they warned about error they

62:53

called them messengers of error the

62:56

second thing they warned about very

62:58

explicitly is they said that the primary

63:01

a capacity of the archons is something

63:04

called how h al hroub et al is a Coptic

63:09

word and what it means is simulation

63:12

simulation or artifice mm or you could

63:17

say virtual reality an example of how is

63:23

plastic and pearl suppose I put a white

63:28

round object in your hand and I say to

63:33

you that's a pearl well you know that a

63:36

pearl is made by Nature it's made under

63:38

the sea in the body of an oyster human

63:42

beings cannot do that it's done by

63:44

Nature but suppose I say this is a pearl

63:47

in your hand when actually it's just a

63:49

ball of plastic that looks like a pearl

63:52

mm-hmm

63:53

now suppose that you were incapable of

63:56

telling the pearl

63:57

the plastic mmm that would be how that

64:01

would be simulation and one of the

64:04

things that the Gnostics warned about is

64:06

that there's a tendency in our own mind

64:08

to become infatuated with our models are

64:11

fictions and our simulations and the

64:14

more that we do that in a sense the more

64:16

we allow these archons to take over our

64:18

minds it's very sophisticated

64:21

for analysis and it's a very very strong

64:26

warning hmm absolutely fascinating so so

64:32

in regards to the text again going back

64:35

do you think that or rather do you know

64:38

if I mean how how could could the

64:42

Gnostics back then known of their

64:44

existence is is there any hint of that

64:46

meaning that was this something they

64:48

discovered well you know there were in

64:51

prayer or some kind of meditation or was

64:54

this something they would have just been

64:55

aware of because of their ancestors have

64:58

been passing down information any clues

65:00

on that how could the Gnostics know of

65:03

the existence of these entities how

65:05

could they know how they came into

65:07

existence in the first place yeah how

65:09

could the Gnostics know about how our

65:12

solar system was created how could they

65:15

know what the techniques and and the

65:17

tactics of the archons are I pondered

65:20

those questions very seriously now you

65:23

will not find in the text themselves

65:25

anak the directx answer to those

65:28

questions okay hmm I wouldn't mislead

65:30

you on that so but I have an answer and

65:33

I feel confident about it but I must

65:36

tell you that my answer is is from an

65:39

inference okay I'm just making an

65:43

inference sure this is John lashes

65:45

inference and you can take it or leave

65:46

it this is what he thinks he thinks that

65:50

the Gnostic schools of the mysteries

65:52

which existed up until the Christian

65:54

time were actually the inheritors of

66:00

many thousands of years of spiritual and

66:04

shamanic practice the Gnostics were

66:07

shamans

66:09

and they inherit it from the their

66:11

ancestors in Europe in Scandinavia from

66:13

the great traditions of the great seers

66:15

like Odin Odin would be a typical

66:18

example of an ancient Gnostic an ancient

66:21

shaman and so Gnosticism is the flower

66:26

of indigenous European shamanism and if

66:31

this is true then I would infer that

66:34

Gnostics were parapsychologists that

66:36

they could experience alternative

66:38

realities that they could explore the

66:41

astral world they could explore other

66:42

worlds and in the process of their

66:44

shamanism and their practice of

66:49

heightened awareness they detected these

66:52

entities directly they encountered these

66:54

entities they looked into the history of

66:57

the solar system call it what you will

66:58

reading the Akashic record call it

67:01

whatever you want we know today that

67:03

shamans in indigenous cultures in the

67:06

Amazon and elsewhere have these

67:08

faculties and Germans from say the

67:13

ayahuasca shamans of Peru and the Amazon

67:17

and shamans in other cultures around the

67:20

world in Africa for instance report the

67:24

same information about these entities so

67:28

when you ask me how they know I say to

67:29

you they were accomplished shamans who

67:32

had faculties of higher perception that

67:36

allowed them to experience these things

67:37

directly my view very interesting do you

67:41

think that they it could be possible

67:43

that at the same time they had I mean

67:45

there's so many stories of when for

67:48

example the many of the South American

67:50

tribes are entering into this other

67:52

world so to speak that they have contact

67:55

with other forms of entities that

67:57

actually hands down information to them

68:00

something about what is happening on

68:01

earth or their own health in some cases

68:03

there's so many stories about this if

68:05

you need you think that about I think

68:10

three or four of the NAG Hammadi texts

68:14

that present themselves as what we would

68:18

today call documents of channelling mmm

68:22

you know sure channeling and in those

68:26

texts we have a report as it were a kind

68:29

of shorthand report it's not put the

68:31

reports are kind of you know like notes

68:37

taken in a classroom you know and the

68:41

report seems to indicate that there is a

68:43

there is a master or or or a seer or

68:46

shaman who is standing in front of the

68:49

group of students and is communicating

68:52

with a higher dimensional being and

68:55

channeling information from that being

68:58

and there are texts which actually show

69:01

that one of which is called the

69:03

discourse on the eighth and the ninth

69:05

the discourse on the eighth and the

69:06

ninth is an arc Almighty text that

69:08

actually describes that kind of

69:10

channeling session and so you're

69:12

absolutely right some of the information

69:14

that Gnostics received came from

69:16

contacting higher intelligences and it's

69:19

clear from the text that they discerned

69:22

and detected many different kinds of

69:26

non-human entities in the cosmos and not

69:29

all of them were hostile to humanity in

69:32

fact many of them were were allies right

69:36

but they did detect one predatory

69:39

species the archons and one is all it

69:44

takes mat wuts all it takes it's like

69:47

the malaria it's like malaria it only

69:50

takes one mosquito ananassa leaves

69:53

mosquito to bite you give you malaria

69:56

sure there are many mosquitoes in the

69:58

world many kinds of instincts but it

70:00

only takes one and so they were seem to

70:03

have been terribly concerned that there

70:05

was one predatory species the archons

70:07

that we really need to watch out for and

70:10

you even might be very difficult going

70:14

going into this other place and discern

70:16

who's who sort of speak who's hostile

70:18

who's not who's deceiving who's giving

70:20

me right information here that must

70:22

always be a concern right well you know

70:24

it's very interesting there was a book

70:26

that came out in 1980 called the way of

70:28

the shaman by Michael Horner and this

70:32

was a key book in bringing shamanism

70:34

into the mainstream

70:36

and Michael Horner was a psychiatrist

70:39

from Connecticut or somewhere in the

70:41

East Coast who went to South America you

70:43

know did ayahuasca hmm

70:45

and under the ayahuasca trance he had a

70:47

vision and so forth he saw various

70:50

things and of course the session of

70:53

ayahuasca he did was was was a

70:56

controlled or managed by some of the

71:00

veteran ayahuasca shamans who were in

71:02

that region right and Michael hunter

71:05

relates this amazing incident of how he

71:07

came out of his ayahuasca vision and he

71:09

turned to the old Brazilian shaman there

71:12

to tell him what it experienced you know

71:13

and he said oh I met these dragon like

71:16

beings and they had wings and they said

71:19

that they came to the earth in in a boat

71:21

and they brought the seeds of humanity

71:23

here in this boat in this big canoe and

71:25

so forth and so on and isn't that

71:27

fascinating now I know how humanity

71:29

originated and the old Brazilian shaman

71:33

looked at him in laughs yeah and he said

71:35

what they always tell everybody that

71:36

they're just a bunch of liars

71:40

the interesting thing is that if you're

71:43

going to practice shamanism and you're

71:46

going to go into altered states of

71:48

consciousness you must learn how to

71:51

distinguish the trick how to see what

71:54

the tricksters are doing because there

71:55

are many tricksters out there knocking

71:56

and you must it's part of the practice

71:59

of knowing the true from the fault yeah

72:02

just like in any other field of in any

72:05

other field of life you know so I

72:06

believe that that the Gnostics were

72:08

highly accomplished shamans who could

72:11

who could detect the difference and and

72:13

that they pinpointed these archons as

72:16

particularly a particular menace to us

72:19

mm-hmm absolutely fascinating now let's

72:22

dive into a little bit about well I

72:26

guess I want to start at 1947 and move

72:29

on from there I want to talk about

72:32

Roswell or Rose well I want to Roswell

72:36

except with the discovery right yeah and

72:38

the discovery of the nagas

72:40

I'm at a library in in similar time

72:43

period we could talk about the the OSS

72:46

becoming the CIA you know how that's

72:48

right

72:49

inspired there's so much there where do

72:51

you want to begin well I think you know

72:53

there's a there's a piece on that on the

72:56

site of course 1947 Nexus I think that

72:59

what that it's fascinating we could talk

73:01

about that for the rest of the night

73:03

just point out the essential facts I'll

73:06

just point this out for those of your

73:08

listeners who don't know the narco mati

73:12

tacks were discovered actually by an

73:14

Arab peasant in December 1945 but their

73:16

importance was not recognized they were

73:18

just stuffed in a drawer in a museum in

73:20

Cairo and it was not until June 1947

73:25

when another scholar came from France

73:28

Jean direst came from France and that he

73:31

was shown these and he realized how

73:33

important they were now June July August

73:36

of 1947 was a time when simultaneously a

73:41

number of other events occurred that was

73:44

also the year that the Dead Sea scrolls

73:47

were discovered and so and the Dead Sea

73:51

Scrolls are another kind of document

73:54

they were discovered near Jerusalem and

73:56

they were written in in Hebrew and

73:57

Aramaic but they form an important part

73:59

of this story the Dead Sea Scrolls are

74:02

discovered the CIA was founded from the

74:06

OSS and a whole number of other things

74:09

occurred in 1947 it was sort of like an

74:13

explosion of the human psyche and the

74:18

we're kind of living in there in the

74:20

effects of that explosion now and the

74:23

main effect of that is that these

74:27

esoteric religious documents the Dead

74:31

Sea scrolls and the non comedy documents

74:33

are somehow all mixed up with our ideas

74:36

of global conspiracy and our ideas of

74:39

extraterrestrial you know

74:42

extraterrestrial influence sure yeah

74:44

it's just remarkable just a little over

74:49

60 years ago that it all seemed to

74:52

explode at the same moment you did you

74:55

always can you already I should say kind

74:58

of laid out the idea that the archons

75:01

possibly could could

75:02

either be the the grace or I have some

75:05

kind of a relationship to them and I

75:07

want to explore that further and I want

75:09

to explore the idea of alien technology

75:11

further and what is happening with us

75:13

now I guess the first thing I would like

75:15

to ask is do you think that possibly

75:18

then there was a downed craft or as big

75:21

a aircraft that crashed in Roswell

75:23

around 47 and the consequence of that

75:26

was that we attained some kind of alien

75:28

technology right right the Roswell crash

75:32

which took place also in in that year is

75:37

significant because the Roswell crash is

75:40

the basis of what is called the

75:42

extra-terrestrial hypothesis if you look

75:46

on Medi history org you'll find in the

75:48

in the site guide there's a an article

75:51

called nine theories of extraterrestrial

75:54

influence mmm now I outlined nine

75:58

different theories one of those series

76:00

is the Gnostic theory which I've been

76:02

discussing with you but the most

76:03

well-known one of course is the

76:05

so-called extra-terrestrial hypothesis

76:07

according to this hypothesis an alien

76:10

spacecraft crashed in Roswell in 1947

76:12

and bodies were recovered living bodies

76:16

and what happened is that the American

76:17

government secretly cut a deal with

76:19

these grey aliens and got from them

76:24

technology secrets of Technology in

76:26

return for allowing them to experiment

76:29

on the human race to abduct people to

76:31

interbreed and so forth and so on

76:33

mm-hmm okay that's the extra-terrestrial

76:35

hypothesis which is the most widely

76:38

accepted conspiracy theory now you're

76:42

asking me do I think that that crash

76:44

actually took place well you know I want

76:49

to say this that in the Gnostic

76:52

materials that I've studied there are

76:55

descriptions of Close Encounters of

76:58

abductions vivid descriptions and there

77:01

are also descriptions of the gray type

77:03

aliens and a reptilian type alien those

77:07

are in the text but I must add that

77:09

there are no descriptions of hardware

77:12

there are no descriptions of flying

77:14

saucers

77:15

the Gnostic material mm-hmm so I can to

77:19

be very very cautious when I hear claims

77:21

that there's actually hardware that it

77:23

has you know crashed and so forth there

77:26

are descriptions of hardware and flying

77:29

saucers in the Dead Sea Scrolls

77:30

mm-hmm so these these sightings have

77:35

occurred from very ancient times so my

77:39

answer would be I really don't know I

77:42

tend to think that the Roswell story may

77:46

have been largely invented and that it

77:50

may be being used to manipulate people

77:54

it's a very complex subject but you know

77:58

I kind of follow Jaguar lay on this rock

78:01

wale who wrote messengers of deception

78:03

he was in my opinion the most

78:05

intelligent and careful analyst of the

78:09

UFO phenomena and he says whether or not

78:14

alien spacecraft has I have actually

78:17

crashed the story about them controls

78:21

people's minds and manipulates people

78:23

and I sort of take that whew well sorry

78:27

if it sounds like I'm no no no no that's

78:31

a perfect moment because I also want to

78:34

kind of go into that area a little bit

78:36

that if because earlier you said that

78:39

that these archons are kind of a you

78:41

know not physical so to speak this is

78:43

something otherworldly that that can't

78:45

occupy bodies but what I kind of want to

78:48

lead into here a little bit is the fact

78:51

that they actually are interested in

78:53

inhabiting bodies on this planet meaning

78:55

that they want to in some way either

78:57

incarnate into body bodies or actually

79:00

build something either from genetic

79:03

material or from mechanic you know

79:06

robotics basically that they can

79:08

incarnate into what one idea that has

79:12

been laid forth is is the idea that the

79:14

greys actually are robots if we think of

79:17

the idea of how we do things not right

79:19

meaning the we send probes we send

79:21

robots into space to explore other

79:23

planets right so why could not the greys

79:25

be a more you know artificial

79:28

almost kind of a entity in itself coming

79:32

here exploring on behalf on some other

79:33

intelligence from another solar system

79:35

you know okay now there are of course

79:38

thousands and thousands of theories

79:40

about this and there's a lot of

79:41

confusion about it let me see if I can

79:43

give you as briefly as possible

79:45

a gnostic approach that may be helpful

79:49

sure what I draw from what the Gnostic

79:52

said about the archons are two important

79:56

points the first point is that they are

79:58

an inorganic species you know probably

80:01

silicon mercury kind of base and that

80:04

they live in the solar system at large

80:07

but they cannot live in the biosphere of

80:09

the earth so there for them to come into

80:11

the biosphere of the earth is more or

80:13

less like a human being diving into the

80:16

bottom of the ocean we need to have very

80:19

complicated diving gear we need to have

80:22

either go in a diving bell or we have to

80:26

have some kind of bulky diving equipment

80:28

but we cannot stay down at the bottom of

80:31

the ocean very long because we're not

80:32

designed to live there so this explains

80:37

why the actual physical appearances of

80:40

these aliens would be so erratic and so

80:42

brief because they're only able to to

80:47

make brief forays into our atmosphere

80:51

okay mm-hm

80:53

that's one explanation the second point

80:55

is he is even more important you raise

80:57

the question well do they want to do

80:59

they want to incarnate do they want to

81:00

somehow become embodied on earth and

81:03

take over the earth well from what I

81:05

draw from the Gnostic writings this is

81:10

not their aim their aim is more or less

81:14

to invade our minds and to live through

81:17

us now if they succeed in doing that

81:22

then we would become our contech mmm I

81:26

use that adjective Montek sure what does

81:29

it mean to become our contech if the

81:32

human race were to become our contech we

81:35

would show a change of behavior that

81:37

would be dramatic

81:40

first of all we would only live in

81:43

simulated or artificial environments we

81:46

would sever all connections with the

81:48

natural world

81:49

second if the human race were to become

81:52

our contact we would make ourselves into

81:55

robots

81:56

we would become robotized in our

82:00

behavior we would become like robots

82:03

like robot zombies and we would attempt

82:05

to everything to replace our natural

82:08

organs with prosthetic organs we would

82:11

for instance if we had a perfectly

82:13

natural legs we would prefer to replace

82:18

those legs with robotic legs Bionic

82:21

Bionic we would become Bionic we would

82:24

go into a bionic phase that is if now

82:27

that is how we would behave if what the

82:33

Gnostics warned is true the archons

82:37

primarily our mind parasites they don't

82:41

have the capacity really to incarnate as

82:43

human beings but they have the capacity

82:45

to go so deeply into our minds that we

82:48

can try to become them they make us try

82:51

to become like they are that's how I

82:55

understand what they would do and I see

82:58

many indications of us going in that

83:01

direction in the current technology in

83:04

nanotechnology bionics and those things

83:08

that you are looking at you know on your

83:11

site sure yeah yeah I mean exactly and

83:15

and I mean there are so many points

83:19

there they want to pick up out but one

83:20

thing at a time here there there the

83:23

reason for them for you know changing us

83:26

so to speak for going first into our

83:28

minds and then changing our bodies which

83:31

consequently also reflects our mind so

83:34

we would change our own mentality with

83:38

that the interest from the organs do you

83:41

think that that is for what is their own

83:42

purposes for you or do they want to use

83:45

us for something you know is there

83:47

galactic war going on what's happening

83:51

what I'm gonna tell you now it's

83:53

extremely

83:54

but I am not making it up what I'm going

83:57

to tell you now is my best expression of

84:01

what I have found in the Gnostic

84:02

writings the first point is absolutely

84:06

clear the Gnostics say that the

84:08

motivation of the archons is envy they

84:12

use that word Envy phonos in Greek then

84:16

they say that the archons Envy us

84:18

because we're kind of like a cousin

84:20

species to them but we are the

84:24

privileged cousins because we live in a

84:27

paradise which is the earth and the

84:29

biosphere and they live out in the solar

84:32

system at large and they they have

84:34

hardware I'm sure they do

84:35

and they move around among the various

84:37

planets and they have space stations

84:39

among the various planets and as you

84:40

know there's been quite a bit of

84:41

confirmation of this since NASA has been

84:44

out there poking around ok but they Envy

84:48

us because we live in an actual paradise

84:51

we live in a place that is sensual in a

84:54

place that is beautiful in a place that

84:56

is sheltered from the rest of the

84:58

universe and so the first thing that

85:01

they teach us about them is that they

85:04

envied us envied us the second thing

85:06

they say is really mind boggling they

85:09

say that the Gnostics that the that the

85:12

archons operate in a senseless manner

85:15

that they have no real plan that they

85:18

are just senselessly disrupting us and

85:21

they get a certain satisfaction out of

85:23

doing that they get a satisfaction out

85:25

of they get kind of a vicarious thrill

85:28

when we are fearful and confused the

85:33

intensity of the emotion of fear and the

85:35

intensity of confusion seems in a way to

85:38

feed them and so in the final analysis

85:43

and I know this is not an easy thing to

85:45

accept but I'm giving you my best you

85:48

know my best research here sure the

85:51

final analysis they're tricksters

85:54

they're tricksters they're not really

85:57

predators who want to come in and take

85:59

over the earth and turn it into the

86:01

matrix then they pay you know if they

86:03

did that they wouldn't even have any set

86:05

section they probably just go on and do

86:06

something else somewhere else they there

86:09

are tricksters in there fascination is

86:12

with our minds it's a mind game it's a

86:15

battle in the mind hmm

86:17

it's a cosmic test you know I I have an

86:21

article on the site in which I draw more

86:24

than 12 exact parallels between the

86:27

archons and the so called Flyers that

86:30

are described in the work of Carlos

86:32

Castaneda mm-hmm

86:33

you know the last book of Custody ADA

86:35

called the active site of infinity was

86:38

published just after he died and many

86:42

people may not have read that last book

86:44

of Castaneda but I tell you it's

86:45

absolutely remarkable because it deals

86:47

completely with this subject with

86:50

predators and psychic invasion that's

86:53

the subject of that book and he calls

86:56

these predator entities the Flyers and

86:58

he describes them in many ways that are

87:02

exactly parallel to what the Gnostics

87:03

say and at one point Castaneda is having

87:07

a conversation with Don Juan and I would

87:10

add by the way it doesn't matter if you

87:11

believe if this is made up or not

87:13

because the truth comes in fictional

87:15

form and in factual form so Gustin 8 is

87:19

having this conversation with Don Juan

87:20

who says to him and he's a very old

87:22

shaman who can detect these beings and

87:25

Don Juan says they're the way that the

87:27

universe tests us to see if we can

87:31

master our own minds and I believe that

87:34

that's the final statement about the

87:35

archons it's a test

87:36

they are tricksters their malicious

87:38

tricksters but they don't really have

87:41

any grand plan or any grand scheme

87:43

behind it they just like to fuck with

87:45

our minds so I mean we within the

87:49

framework of the universe 1 1 you know

87:51

questions mmm but what is their purpose

87:54

done but but I don't have but I but I

87:57

think that they do I mean if they if

88:00

they kind of represents sorry represents

88:04

a kind of a breakdown aspect to to you

88:07

know what the universe creates and so

88:09

forth this is a way for for the universe

88:12

to make something stronger or better or

88:16

more efficient or what what have you if

88:18

we look at nature

88:18

these things happen all the time there

88:20

is a cycle of death so to speak winter

88:24

and then we have the summer or spring

88:25

you know when things grow but it's it's

88:29

a necessary process in order for that

88:31

the you know continuation of the

88:32

universe so in effect they do feel a

88:35

purpose to kind of you know if we

88:37

compare it to how bacteria and

88:40

antibodies work or whatnot would you say

88:42

that that might be you know the reason

88:44

for them so to speak I agree with you

88:47

and I follow you on that when I say they

88:48

don't have a purpose what I mean is that

88:50

they in themselves don't have a

88:52

designated aim for their activity right

88:55

yes you are you are absolutely correct

88:57

the nature of the activity and the way

88:59

that it affects our species has a

89:02

purpose in the great scheme of things I

89:05

believe that there are tricksters from

89:08

beyond the earth who invade our minds

89:11

and who test us and that we must face

89:13

the archons and I've faced them many

89:15

times and many people have met them but

89:17

unfortunately in the UFO et literature

89:20

there's not enough information about how

89:23

to resist to these beings you know and

89:26

they can be resisted and in fact the

89:29

gnostic teachings contain explicit

89:31

information about how to resist them and

89:33

repel them really no yes Rick Kundalini

89:37

and the alien force mmm

89:39

perhaps the most important essay on this

89:41

subject in meta history org underling

89:43

and the alien force describes cites

89:46

Gnostic documents and describes

89:48

techniques used to repel these mind

89:50

parasites so there is a game going on

89:53

here there is a test involved and it's a

89:56

cosmic test and you are absolutely right

89:58

it falls into the general plan of

90:01

evolution that that we would be tested

90:04

in this way and those who kind of

90:06

succumb I guess to their to their

90:08

trickery is that a way and this is gonna

90:12

sound horrible but but who knows what

90:15

the construct of the universe is things

90:16

die all the time what I'm getting at is

90:19

is this a way for the universe to

90:21

actually you know clean off some of the

90:24

how should I put it you know a

90:27

consciousness that that hasn't taken

90:30

control of itself sort of

90:32

meaning that that they can't fight out

90:34

these forces and this is a way for the

90:37

creation to to advance you know through

90:40

generations so the consciousness

90:42

actually becomes more efficient stronger

90:45

better more you know independent whatnot

90:47

do you think that could be the case in

90:49

my view my friend that is exactly the

90:51

case and I couldn't say it better myself

90:56

you know I was having some one time

91:02

which I was having a doing some

91:06

explorations in heightened awareness put

91:09

it in that way and I was trying to sing

91:11

some shamanism you could say mmm and

91:13

when I practiced shamanism I do it with

91:14

specific intention I just don't do it

91:16

recreationally and I'll and sit around

91:18

and look at elucidation no son but I ask

91:20

questions and I pursue things and in one

91:23

particular session I asked a question

91:25

about the archons I asked what was their

91:28

purpose in this in the scheme of the

91:30

earth and the answer I got was exactly

91:33

what you just said

91:34

they're here to clean out the part of

91:38

our species that cannot take

91:40

responsibility for its own mind because

91:44

the mind is our gift

91:46

the Gnostics called it noose n o us and

91:49

they taught that our intelligence is a

91:52

spark of divinity that we have a spark

91:55

of divine intelligence in US News and

91:58

that what makes our species unique and

92:00

what makes it novel and allows us to be

92:02

to play and invent and create and

92:05

innovate is that we have this divine

92:08

intelligence and but it's being tested

92:12

and in those members of our species that

92:14

it cannot that it's not mastered we'll

92:16

be sheared away and the archons are

92:19

enough in a sense the tool for sheering

92:23

away a part of the human species

92:28

mm-hmm yeah and that's as I said that

92:32

that's that is kind of well I don't know

92:35

I mean very scary yeah but I think

92:40

yeah sure I mean who again who I mean we

92:44

there there is a reason why there are

92:46

you know so many philosophies around the

92:49

humanity as such is still you know

92:50

pondering what the purpose of everything

92:52

is obviously and and we can't you know

92:55

you know in front of that we can't say

92:57

no the universe isn't that brutal in a

93:01

way it actually goes back to the idea

93:03

that we talked about earlier that if it

93:05

is the case that I create your God needs

93:08

a sacrifice how again can we question

93:11

that that you know can we question that

93:15

idea meaning that we might not be in a

93:17

position right now to understand why

93:19

that is a necessary

93:21

you know act or whatever for the

93:23

universe to sustain itself any ideas

93:28

well in this case I would I think it's

93:31

an elegant solution you know by the way

93:33

it's so fires solution so fire is my

93:36

name taken from the Gnostic myth for

93:38

Gaia for the intelligence of the earth

93:41

she is the hostess with the mostess as

93:45

we say in the States

93:46

she is planet on which we live and she

93:50

is also the responsible for the creation

93:53

of the archons she produced the archons

93:55

if you want to learn about how that

93:57

happens you have to read the Gnostic

93:58

creation myth but as I understand Sophia

94:02

Sophia has great faith in human

94:07

intelligence she believes in the

94:09

particular gift of our species and

94:11

celebrates it and yet she also gives our

94:17

species the option to eliminate itself

94:21

you know we can't eliminate ourselves

94:23

that's we doing a fantastic job of it if

94:27

you ask me yeah yeah not only because of

94:29

the pollution that we've created out of

94:31

our ignorance because we haven't

94:32

corrected our mistakes remember Kevin

94:34

corrected our errors it was an error to

94:37

create the internal combustion machine

94:40

without first solving the problem of the

94:43

pollution that it would it would cause

94:45

an error well I actually don't agree

94:48

with it there I see I see that that is a

94:50

perfect way for us during that

94:53

their time in history when that when

94:55

that technology became available when

94:58

the discovery of oil in that sense was

95:00

was made but what I do see is as a

95:02

faulty thing though is that our lack of

95:04

moving on from there right now I mean

95:07

there are so many technologies available

95:08

now and and on one yeah I mean I'm kind

95:12

of jumping between the both of these

95:14

sides so to speak I don't know if you

95:16

have a more cautious overall cautious

95:20

mindset towards technology and the

95:22

development of it I see it more that it

95:25

is you know beneficial to our

95:27

development and the reason for that we

95:29

are involved in it is because we

95:31

actually are creators in a sense

95:32

ourselves and we want to create and you

95:35

know improve our environment or whatnot

95:37

but again obviously this can always be

95:39

used at a you know a negative usage and

95:43

we can you know as a consequence of that

95:44

and you're right there that we are

95:46

bringing objection to that view at all

95:48

in fact I like what you said sir very

95:52

much in the time and setting that it was

95:55

invented the combustion engine was

95:57

internal combustion engine wasn't was an

95:59

appropriate invention for us the problem

96:01

is that we didn't move on and improve it

96:03

exactly yeah we stayed with the model

96:06

that we invented in the first place even

96:08

when we knew that it had very bad side

96:11

effects well and then we have people you

96:13

know adding lead to the gasoline that

96:15

wasn't necessary from to begin with you

96:17

know right diesel engine from from right

96:20

you know the German guy I think diesel

96:22

that was you know even more

96:24

environmentally friendly than the stuff

96:25

we used today basically you know right

96:27

that's right so I agree with you on that

96:30

I think that I do have a very cautious

96:33

view obviously of Technology I'm not

96:35

exactly a techno phobic person but I

96:38

have a very cautious view and my

96:40

strongest objection to technology is

96:42

that I am concerned about the technology

96:46

that would lead us in this arc on tech

96:48

direction you know yeah a lot of the

96:51

hype about the new technology and

96:53

bionics and artificial intelligence I

96:56

think is quite dangerous and probably

97:01

delusional

97:03

you know Marshall McLuhan who was this

97:06

guy who is kind of a

97:07

go rule back in the 60s warned way back

97:10

then about the danger of a prosthetic

97:13

device

97:14

you know aesthetic devices like if your

97:16

teeth fall out you get you get false

97:18

teeth right and he he or if your arm is

97:21

cut off you get an artificial arm put

97:23

off put on but he warned that we would

97:27

we would adopt prosthetic devices that

97:31

we don't even need you know hmm

97:34

but it's likewise if I have a perfectly

97:35

good set of teeth why would I want to

97:39

put false teeth on my teeth you know but

97:42

I think that's what a quite a bit of

97:43

this new technology is proposing

97:46

especially this technology that's

97:47

leading in the direction of you know the

97:49

immortal immortality fantasies which

97:53

which you get into quite a bit on your

97:55

site I notice and I'm I'm interested in

97:57

how you view that and how you're going

97:59

to handle that subject because I've also

98:01

written quite a lot about that yeah I do

98:04

want to tip you know your tip later on

98:07

in regards to a short film that we did

98:09

that really goes in a little bit and ask

98:11

a little bit of questions about this

98:13

idea of longevity in connection to the

98:16

archons and one thing that we did in

98:18

this short film was to and I don't know

98:21

if you read this article or not but

98:23

those who are involved right now in in

98:26

the Human Genome Project one mainly

98:29

craig Venter is one of the guys right

98:32

very prominent right now yeah and he was

98:35

of course involved in this project set

98:38

out to first map the human genome but

98:42

now they set up a new context the

98:44

contest that actually is about mapping

98:46

the DNA of what they call it high speed

98:48

sequencing of mapping that didn't have

98:50

multiple persons basically and this this

98:54

this is an X Prize by the way and they

98:56

net the interesting thing here is that

98:57

the name the contest the archons a

99:00

genomics XPrize contest yeah so I mean

99:05

wow what the heck is going on there

99:07

right

99:10

you know this immortality idea is a

99:14

central theme of the Abrahamic religions

99:17

did you know that does it come again say

99:19

it again the immortality idea the idea

99:23

that you could have an immortal physical

99:25

body deathless is part of the Abrahamic

99:29

religion well again that's why a guy

99:31

like Aubrey de Grey we we touch upon

99:33

this in our short film - he names his

99:36

foundation that that is into longevity

99:38

research the Methuselah foundation that

99:41

is derived directly from the Bible from

99:42

the oldest person in the Bible actually

99:44

right but it's not quite the right name

99:46

that's not the figure that's not the

99:49

actual figure in the Bible who

99:51

represents immortality really Lucilla

99:54

represents longevity right right Nadiya

99:56

mortality sure okay

99:58

what immortality is represented by

100:01

another being called Melchizedek and

100:05

Melchizedek is the whole foundation

100:07

notice it ik is the being who founded

100:10

the whole Abrahamic religion and

100:11

Christianity and Judaism according to

100:15

Melchizedek is described in the Bible as

100:17

being without age without parents and

100:20

without general without generation

100:23

meaning that he was not born in a

100:27

natural way generation being biological

100:30

reproduction right mm-hmm

100:31

now this description of Melchizedek

100:34

which occurs in Romans in the New

100:36

Testament is absolutely startling

100:39

because it's a description of a cloned

100:41

human being we can live forever she's

100:44

really yes and that figure that idea and

100:50

that figure are present at the core of

100:53

these religions and all of the people

100:56

who adhere to these religions believe

100:58

you know that in one form or another

101:01

well after death they will they will be

101:03

if they do what the Father God wants and

101:05

they're obedient after death that they

101:08

will be resurrected and given any mortal

101:10

body hmm yeah I see what you mean

101:13

so so that and even the idea of you know

101:17

at the end of days everyone will rise

101:19

again from the grave basically yeah

101:21

right

101:21

that's right and so this concept that

101:24

vendor and these other people are

101:25

working toward or the transhumanists you

101:28

heard of them I'm sure these people who

101:30

are proposing that through artificial

101:32

intelligence and genomics we can create

101:34

an immortal human being are actually

101:36

working out an ancient religious belief

101:39

system yeah I believe so yeah if again

101:43

if we look at the terminology used and

101:45

even the symbolism in some cases the

101:48

usage of the Grail for instance have

101:49

been kind of you know again connected

101:51

with the longevity theme there's so many

101:55

things there so the question obviously

101:58

becomes at this point the people that

102:02

are involved in this or they then

102:05

influenced by the archons on on a you

102:08

know unconscious level that they are

102:09

being affected or are they consciously

102:11

you know driving this because of their

102:13

own you know ego or interest or or that

102:16

they themselves actually are involved in

102:17

some very you know occult basically

102:20

mythology you know well if I wanted to

102:24

be you know very cautious about it

102:27

Henrick I would say well they're

102:29

marvelous you know scientists with big

102:31

egos who you know want to make a big

102:34

score okay sure but if we want to look a

102:37

little scratch the surface and look a

102:38

little deeper I have to tell you that I

102:40

wouldn't be at all surprised if these

102:43

characters are involved in some level of

102:45

our catism and I wouldn't be at all

102:47

surprised if the Archon influence is not

102:52

what's really driving them if they are

102:54

not they have become are canta CLE

102:56

deviated in the deviation away from

103:02

humanity toward a kind of mutation of

103:05

the human species now it's either going

103:09

to be one thing or the other either

103:11

we're going to reach that mutation okay

103:14

science will reach those goals or we

103:18

won't and if we don't reach them we may

103:23

end up wiping ourselves out in them in

103:26

the meantime

103:27

you know that's pretty much how it looks

103:29

to me mmm well that's pretty scary I

103:32

mean one thing is of course what is

103:35

what is the option here I'm I kind of

103:38

look at all of this as a way to I say

103:41

that we need to take the good parts of

103:43

every little piece you know that we have

103:45

and and and make sure to move on that's

103:48

that's the most important thing that we

103:50

that we actually don't stop in our

103:52

tracks in that sense that we continue to

103:54

evolve and then you know again

103:56

consciously evolved not just you know go

103:59

flying off on some other in a weird path

104:01

of some you know interests of one single

104:03

person or whatnot but I mean many people

104:06

see that the option at this point is to

104:08

no we need to you know totally dismantle

104:10

everything we got and go back you know

104:13

go back to the ancient times go back to

104:14

you know the pagan religion and so forth

104:17

and and and that's the best thing what

104:19

do you see as an option at this point

104:20

that we can do you know well first of

104:23

all I want to say that what you're

104:24

expressing here is what I call the

104:26

heroic attitude you know Joseph Campbell

104:30

who was a great mythologist and some

104:32

people consider me to be as his

104:34

successor hmm

104:35

wrote a book called the hero with a

104:37

thousand faces and I also wrote a book

104:39

called the hero and what you're

104:41

expressing is the heroic attitude the

104:42

warrior attitude that is that we face a

104:46

perhaps incomprehensible situation and

104:50

we face impossible odds but we try to

104:53

turn that into something good yeah okay

104:56

yeah so you're asking what good option

104:58

can we make out of this oh that's a

104:59

fucking great question I don't believe

105:03

by the way I obviously a pagan and a

105:05

mystic but I don't believe that we would

105:07

go back to ancient paganism I believe

105:10

that we might go to some kind of future

105:12

paganism hmm but specifically on this

105:16

subject of genomes and creating the

105:18

immortal human being it's hard to say

105:21

you know I guess I would say that the

105:24

option for me would be this rather than

105:29

thinking about how I could mutate into

105:33

an immortal human being I would like to

105:35

know what is the absolute most I can get

105:38

out of my mortal physical body mm-hmm

105:41

you know what is the most bliss I can

105:44

experience what is the most

105:47

what is that the highest intensity of

105:51

feeling and perception that I can have

105:53

in this mortal body I guess that would

105:55

be my option I guess I would say well I

105:56

would like to see what's the most I can

106:00

get out of that and then maybe if I'm

106:01

not satisfied with that we could

106:05

consider mutating into some other form

106:07

No I guess that would be my response I'm

106:11

really into the body

106:13

absolutely well yeah you know what about

106:16

the idea that you know I've been

106:21

pondering on that idea of where we're

106:23

heading right now and I and again I can

106:25

see that there is very you know very you

106:27

know good purpose so to speak with all

106:30

the connectivity that is going on I said

106:32

the Internet is a kind of basically a

106:35

representation of the the neural

106:37

pathways of you know Gaia basically that

106:40

really all these little cells running

106:42

around human beings done or are you know

106:44

connected to each other and that's

106:45

wonderful and all of that but then on

106:47

the other side you have the danger of

106:49

that you know the microchipped

106:51

population with the computer you know

106:53

interface you know everyone hooking up

106:55

to the to the same illusion and then

106:57

we're basically going to go just deeper

106:59

into the matrix and we actually are

107:01

going to lose our individuality and our

107:03

own consciousness in that process

107:07

beautifully I mean you describe the the

107:09

I think that's the really the great

107:11

challenge that we face that is the

107:13

challenge of globalization yeah and you

107:15

described both the positive side of it

107:17

and the negative side of it you know hmm

107:20

boy I don't pretend to have the answer

107:22

to that I don't have the answer to a lot

107:24

of things you know but I'll tell you

107:26

what my sense is my sense is that you

107:29

know there used to be in the states we

107:30

used to have this bumper sticker because

107:32

you know people in the United States

107:34

expressed the most profound philosophy

107:35

the back of their cars and the bumper

107:39

sticker said think globally act locally

107:44

hmm you know yeah so my observation

107:48

would be this that no matter how much

107:52

positive globalization we have you know

107:55

how much we become normally connected

107:57

across the planet like you and I are

107:59

being connected by Internet

108:00

radio sure you have to live locally you

108:07

don't live on the earth you live in a

108:09

place on the earth you have to live

108:11

locally and as long in on this in

108:14

there's a name for this is called bio

108:15

regionalism mmm bio regionalism is a

108:18

term which means that the people who

108:19

live in a place have a profound

108:22

relationship to the place they live and

108:25

so I think as long as we can maintain by

108:26

a regionalism and as long as people live

108:30

locally which means grow their own food

108:32

locally understand where their water

108:34

comes from locally understand the nature

108:37

or immediately around where they live

108:39

then I think that's the grounding we

108:42

need to not be driven out of our minds

108:45

by globalization hmmmm yeah I believer

108:49

you're right on there I'm kind of

108:51

looking at that too as a kind of some of

108:53

the solution the question though is that

108:56

a rice obviously is is is our is our

108:59

local or our local kind of surroundings

109:03

changing because of you know climate

109:06

change things are obviously going on I

109:07

mean I mean there's no doubt of that and

109:09

could we end up in a situation where we

109:11

actually cannot longer you know sustain

109:14

things as they are on the planet do you

109:16

think that's a possible danger here I

109:19

think that it's probable that it's gonna

109:21

it's going in that direction

109:24

certainly the local impact of certain

109:27

global changes is is obvious to me I you

109:30

know I could give you many examples on

109:31

the way animals are behaving the way the

109:34

seasons come six weeks earlier than

109:36

normal or no seasonal you know I think

109:41

we are going to face that and I think

109:42

that's going to be one of the challenges

109:44

to our adaptation for adaptation you see

109:46

but here again we get back to the are

109:48

chronic question the are chronic

109:50

question you know it's like saying well

109:52

if we're going to be facing now global

109:55

warming and meltdown of the Greenland

109:57

ice shelf and because we're going to be

109:59

able facing changes in the biosphere how

110:04

are we as a species going to face these

110:06

changes in the biosphere if we're

110:08

totally absorbed in artificial reality

110:10

mm-hm

110:12

you know if we have become

110:14

so our Contech that all we can do is

110:17

relate to our machines and our iPods and

110:20

our computers and all these devices and

110:23

gimmicks that we have how the hell are

110:24

we ever going to face the crisis in our

110:27

in our natural environment you know yeah

110:30

I think we're really coming to where

110:34

we're in that crisis we're not coming to

110:36

it we are in it we're in it now and it's

110:39

it's the generation of the people are in

110:42

the 20s and 30s now who really have to

110:45

be smart and have a lot of courage to

110:49

face this mm-hmm

110:50

yeah and and then we have the idea of

110:53

conflicting information constantly there

110:56

are different reports coming out that

110:57

the ice sheet for example aren't

111:00

actually melting there are actually

111:01

builds up in other places we have we

111:04

haven't have philosophers that propose

111:06

that added carbon carbon dioxide chuda

111:09

chuda atmosphere actually might be a

111:11

very good thing because plants and so

111:13

forth you know harvest harvest day they

111:16

leave home that basically you know we

111:18

could I consequently more rain because

111:19

of that we might actually moving into a

111:21

whole new era of the planting the era

111:23

where the plant becomes more you know

111:25

gives more so to speak more more growth

111:27

and more you know the desert you know

111:30

begin to disappear and so forth but but

111:32

a consequence of that meaning that if we

111:34

try to stop this now with removing

111:36

carbon monoxide that's the consequence

111:38

of that is that we're going to live you

111:40

know in in a worse environment I don't

111:42

know any ideas

111:44

it's crazy making we don't really know

111:46

but whichever of those scenarios is true

111:51

the fact remains that we're going to

111:54

have to adapt to changes in the

111:57

environment and if we make ourselves too

112:01

dependent on our technology we are going

112:04

to be less able to make that adaptation

112:06

you see that's my point yet mhmmm

112:09

technology has that danger we become

112:12

dependent on our toys in our devices

112:15

Menace species that's dependent on its

112:17

toys and devices when it has to get out

112:21

there like the Beavers and the birds and

112:23

the whales and deal with the changes in

112:25

environment it's going to be wiped out

112:27

and mean

112:28

mm-hmm yeah so it's all about getting

112:31

back to nature sounds very corny but

112:34

that's what it is about and and that's

112:35

what my message is about sacred ecology

112:38

and I believe that the Gnostics were

112:41

profound mystics and and shamans who who

112:45

looked deeply into the processes of

112:47

nature and understood nature in an

112:50

intimate way and I think that we would

112:53

benefit from following their example

112:56

mm-hmm

112:57

yeah I think we are actually moving in

112:59

the consciousness is beginning to you

113:01

know go go back to that idea in many

113:03

cases not you know again this is not

113:05

across the board of how overall Humanity

113:09

behaves or what not but if we don't

113:10

learn of it I think we're going to have

113:12

to be forced to learn the hard way and I

113:14

hate to go down that road you know

113:16

that's right and as far as the learning

113:18

process is concerned how does our

113:21

species learn to cooperate with nature

113:23

to become symbiotic and to make the best

113:26

of the natural environment that is order

113:29

to be in harmony with Gaia if you want

113:31

to put it that way well that's where

113:33

Antonia Jen's come in and that's why

113:36

meta history org although it may not

113:38

appear so at first sight is one of the

113:41

most powerful and energetic sites on the

113:44

Internet as far as I know my intention

113:47

anyway is to send a very strong message

113:49

about entheogens or sacred plants or

113:51

what I want to call medicine plants

113:54

mm-hmm you know we now know that of all

113:57

the millions

113:58

first of all plants are the most

114:00

prolific species on the earth there are

114:04

more plants than any other species okay

114:06

and we know that of the millions of the

114:09

hundreds of thousands of plant species

114:11

there are about 200 of those that have a

114:14

very special nature that is that when we

114:18

ingest them they enhance the operations

114:21

of our brain because they have neuro

114:25

transmitting chemicals in them and this

114:28

has only been known you know recently I

114:30

mean it's been known by shamans for

114:32

thousands of years but science is only

114:34

known recently that there are about 200

114:37

kinds of plants including psychedelic

114:39

mushrooms psilocybin mushrooms

114:41

WASC iboga things like that right that

114:46

give that have psychomimetic properties

114:49

they don't impose anything on our psyche

114:52

they just rank up the operation of the

114:55

mind and the psyche to an extraordinary

114:57

level and I believe that those plants

115:00

the entheogens

115:01

have been provided by Gaia to teach us

115:04

how to follow her designs and how to

115:07

live and survive over the long term so

115:10

that's why they are so important and

115:12

that's why antigens are such a central

115:14

message in my work mm-hmm wonderful and

115:18

that's I guess also why many you know

115:21

controlling agents of this planet now

115:23

are trying to make planet sure yeah you

115:29

know that there is a toad do you know

115:30

about toad looking okay there's

115:33

beautiful tannic acid on toads right and

115:36

if you lick the toad you can get a you

115:38

can go into an altered state right yeah

115:40

in it is known in the United States this

115:43

is gonna blow your way it's known in the

115:45

United States that the Colorado River

115:47

toad which lives in the area of the

115:50

Colorado River is quite rare as highly

115:53

hallucinogenic it's a if you lick the

115:56

back of that toad you will get high you

115:59

will go into an altered state well it is

116:00

now illegal to own a Colorado River toad

116:03

there we go nice oh my god well waiter

116:07

or you just hold on there because

116:08

they're going to genetically modify that

116:10

totes we don't even have to worry about

116:11

that you know in Amsterdam where I

116:19

frequently used to go to the smart shops

116:22

to buy dried mushrooms or then dried

116:23

mushrooms were made illegal and put on

116:25

the same level as Class A drug cocaine

116:28

which is totally insane there is no

116:31

clinical evidence and scientific

116:33

evidence that psychedelic mushrooms

116:36

produce damage on the level of cocaine

116:39

or alcohol

116:40

none whatsoever now their course Bennett

116:43

they're banning fresh mushrooms really

116:46

yeah they are they're banning they're

116:49

making it illegal to sell fresh

116:50

mushrooms in Hallandale do

116:52

you are absolutely right you see the one

116:55

greatest threat to the authorities and

116:56

this is what I'm writing about right now

116:57

on the mid history site this is my

116:59

current material my current project the

117:01

one greatest threat to the authorities

117:03

is that we should have free access to

117:06

the plants nature gives us to enlighten

117:09

us right because then we will be onto

117:11

the game then we will see we're being

117:13

controlled deceived and manipulated and

117:16

so these plants which just grow in

117:19

nature are going to be systematically

117:22

forbidden to us and there is a battle

117:24

there is a battle taking place there Jon

117:26

we will love to have you back on the

117:28

program here at some point and maybe we

117:31

could this would be a perfect topper

117:32

actually to dive in further into the and

117:34

Theo Jensen see you know what what is

117:36

good what is not and so forth and

117:38

explore that a little while I would be

117:40

delighted to do that and Rickon also it

117:42

gives me the opportunity to speak about

117:44

those things in a way that is sober and

117:47

clear and well balanced because I think

117:51

that it's an extremely important subject

117:53

and it should not be discussed in a

117:55

fanatical or imbalance way and I'd love

117:58

the opportunity to go into it with you

118:00

excellent opiate yeah perfect you know

118:02

again I want to thank you so much for

118:04

fantastic you know interview this has

118:06

been a you know fabulous program awesome

118:08

and I want to leave the last two minutes

118:10

here again to use you can mention your

118:12

website again your latest book but also

118:14

mention the earlier books that you have

118:17

out there I'm not familiar with too many

118:19

of them mention them for us

118:20

well my first book was called the

118:23

seekers handbook it came out in 1991 and

118:25

it's kind of a general guide to

118:28

alternative spirituality after that I

118:30

wrote two books on comparative mythology

118:33

one is called twins and the double in it

118:36

and the other one is called the hero

118:38

then I wrote in 1999 my main work on the

118:43

star zodiac and the constellations of

118:45

the sky which is called quest for the

118:47

zodiac and my most recent book is this

118:50

book on Gnosticism which is called His

118:53

image that came out November of of 2006

118:58

I just want to mention too and exciting

119:00

in addition to the meta history org site

119:02

there's a sister site called future

119:05

primitives

119:06

work which you can get to from the

119:08

homepage of that history and it has

119:10

interviews it's all interviews with

119:12

fantastic people and there are some

119:14

interviews with me on there regarding

119:16

the subjects we've been discussing nice

119:18

excellent so meta history dot work and

119:21

future prima derivative work okay

119:24

excellent again John thank you so much

119:26

for coming on a true pleasure having on

119:28

thank you so much and we'll be continued

119:31

to be in touch it's been a real pleasure

119:42

you