San Quentin Prison, Shootouts and Escape: John Abbott

San Quentin Prison, Shootouts and Escape: John Abbott | Shaun Attwood's Podcast 10, The jaw-dropping story of a gunman the media labelled as an extremely dangerous super-villain with an IQ of 180 trained in a deadly Japanese martial art.

Transcript

00:00

all right so I'm here with John Abbott

00:05

this evening

00:06

and my mind is still grappling with his

00:10

story we're talking to prison stints in

00:16

different countries so California and

00:20

Canada we're talking to shootouts with

00:24

the police both of which someone ended

00:27

up dead we're talking in a prison escape

00:31

and John ending up in countries like

00:36

Japan New Zealand honestly is absolutely

00:41

mind-blowing so can you tell us John

00:45

about the first shootout what happened

00:49

how did that come about well I mean

00:54

thinking back on it it was stupid shit

00:56

that young guys do my brother and I were

01:01

walking along and he told me that he was

01:03

an excellent car thief and I said well

01:07

what do you mean he said well I can

01:09

steal any car you can point out in ten

01:11

seconds and I said you're full of shit

01:14

show me so we went to this parking lot

01:17

and sure enough he stole the car and

01:21

then that turn into it was my turn to do

01:24

something so I had my eye on this

01:29

jewelry store was full of in those days

01:32

silver and turquoise jewelry was popular

01:34

so I thought well we'll try and be super

01:38

cool and burglarized the place and well

01:44

unfortunately of course not being

01:47

professional criminals we set off the

01:49

alarm the police came my brother put

01:54

down some covering fire to keep them off

01:55

us but unfortunately for us the

01:59

policeman was said on the back was a

02:01

Vietnam vet he knew exactly what he was

02:04

doing and well he he blew up my brother

02:10

and then he tried to blow up me and

02:12

fortunately I dive to the ground

02:13

you missed and I managed to scoot away

02:16

so we didn't get any loot but I got my

02:20

brother killed so Jesus Christ how old

02:24

are you at this point I was 21 and he

02:26

was 18 oh my god see then you're

02:28

arrested well what happened I didn't

02:33

know what to do so I slept it's in some

02:36

office in the university and then the

02:38

next morning I tried to phone the

02:39

hospital to see how he was but they had

02:42

a tap on the phone so they just

02:44

converged on me and that was that what

02:48

county jail did you end up in at this

02:49

point Wow it's called Yolo County Jail

02:52

in Woodland little countryside County

02:56

Jail

02:57

what were you charged with and what was

02:58

your bail there was no bail because

03:03

during the six during the night there

03:07

were you know shots fired into the

03:09

police station and shots fired at police

03:12

helicopters and so with that kind of

03:17

drama going on there was no bail coming

03:20

for the judge was just like coming down

03:21

heavy on you because of everything that

03:23

happened around it um the sentence when

03:26

I was found guilty was five to life for

03:29

assault with a deadly weapon five to

03:31

life for armed burglary run concurrently

03:34

so how long were you in the jail before

03:37

you were sentenced well I'd say we'd

03:43

been I say about two and a half three

03:45

months maybe

03:46

and what were conditions like in the

03:47

jail um it wasn't it wasn't that bad

03:51

because in California you have a strange

03:56

demography in Los Angeles Oakland in

03:59

those big cities you have hardcore gangs

04:02

as hard as you can get but in the rural

04:04

sort of what they call white bread

04:07

counties basically kids go to jail for

04:12

stealing cars or selling a bit of

04:14

marijuana or you know fights or drunken

04:18

driving things like that so you've got a

04:20

real split and so the jail there didn't

04:23

have that many prisoners and most of

04:26

them were lightweight

04:27

kind of simple crime so I was like the

04:31

star for the time you know did that

04:33

change after you got sentenced well yeah

04:36

because then you go off to the

04:37

California Department of Corrections

04:40

they they do a the first thing they do

04:43

before sentencing is there was a 90 day

04:46

diagnostic in Vacaville which was

04:49

Vacaville it's called medical facility

04:51

but half of Vacaville was for the the

04:56

nutters as you'd call Charlie Manson was

04:59

there Kemper I don't know if you

05:01

remember Kemper yeah yeah he's a quite

05:04

famous right now because they've got

05:05

this new program that's out about the

05:08

serial killer profiling I think he was

05:10

the first episode did you interact with

05:13

either those guys well I saw a Kemper

05:15

cuz some he people were afraid of him

05:21

because he's just he was a total psycho

05:23

I mean he was carrying around human

05:25

heads in his car and all sorts people's

05:27

body parts in the fridge but he was a

05:30

huge guy and so somebody talked him into

05:32

going to the wait pit to see how much he

05:34

could weigh how much he could push and

05:37

he he didn't push weights but he laid

05:40

down on the bench press and they pirate

05:42

up piled on all the iron they could find

05:43

and he bench pressed it and of course

05:47

after that nobody wanted to be near him

05:48

right because he could put one hand

05:51

around someone's throat and just chuck

05:54

them out so anyway he they kept him on

05:57

Thorazine and Prolixin they used to call

05:59

it the Prolixin shuffle where fellows

06:02

would be dribbling what just moving in

06:07

about quarter speed you know basically

06:10

human zombies yeah I saw guys line up

06:13

with the meds and then they you know

06:14

doing that shuffle in the jails in

06:17

Arizona so you in Vacaville what happens

06:20

in Vacaville over this period well they

06:22

want to see how you how you handle

06:24

yourself because basically what happens

06:27

is their psych reviews and psychological

06:31

testing and then the guards write a

06:33

report about how you act and of course

06:36

the problem is

06:38

for Northern California all people who

06:42

get sentenced go to Vacaville so you've

06:45

got you know your what your car thief

06:49

looking at eighteen months or two years

06:52

in with some guy from the nuestra

06:55

familia or the Emmy or black guerrilla

06:58

family on the same yard at the same time

07:01

so made for some exciting events did you

07:07

see anything happened like anyone get

07:09

stopped rivalries anything like that in

07:10

Vacaville all well I'm almost first day

07:14

I was out on the yard I went to the wait

07:16

pit because y-you saw my picture I

07:19

seriously need to upgrade my physique

07:21

and I was like a geek

07:23

middle class college white geek with no

07:28

experience on the street no gang

07:30

membership didn't even I'd never been to

07:33

juvie you've been through Youth

07:34

Authority or any of that and I realized

07:36

I was out of my depth so immediately

07:39

went out to the white pet you thought I

07:40

better do something but of course I mean

07:42

the problem is if you can't lift real

07:45

weight then there you are looking like a

07:47

girl lifting some tiny which is

07:51

embarrassing too but almost the first

07:54

day I was there I saw this guy he was

07:55

just well he was huge great physique

07:58

lying there doing bench presses and you

08:02

know he was like you thought well this

08:04

guy would have no problem at all and I'm

08:07

sort of admiring him there and the

08:09

second I'm doing that a gang an ester

08:12

has come from behind the the handball

08:14

court knock his his a spotter out of the

08:17

way and then they're jumping on him one

08:19

of them hit him on the head with a ten

08:21

kilo weight he's unconscious

08:23

and there's in the chest string I don't

08:28

know what to do and so I'm standing

08:29

there and everybody's running like deer

08:31

for the gate and then the guns go off

08:33

and bang bang gates are shut you know

08:36

what you know basically what happens

08:39

there

08:40

so that was that was again one of these

08:43

reality checks when you realize it's not

08:45

happened to someone else it's happening

08:47

right here and it could just as well be

08:49

you and if this guy who's you know

08:52

buffed to the max and obviously been in

08:54

jail all his life if he gets taken up

08:56

that easily

08:59

so there are various stages of

09:01

adaptation and when I first went in you

09:04

know I'm seeing people gets head smashed

09:05

against Tyler stuff like that and it's

09:07

putting this look of shock on my face

09:09

and it was like six months later I'm

09:11

completely immune I'm just got this dead

09:13

eyes look from it all at this point

09:16

where you're all going in there are

09:17

you've gone through a period of shock

09:19

and adjustment well the shock is the

09:25

reality did you could get taken out at

09:28

any time if someone wants to take you

09:31

out they're gonna take you out yeah now

09:33

you don't feel that when you're outside

09:35

in regular life we don't confront

09:38

life-and-death situations certainly not

09:40

in middle-class white communities like I

09:43

grew up in so I realized that there are

09:48

two things I had to do until I was able

09:51

to physically deal with people I had to

09:54

keep my head down so like the little

09:57

deer just stay still and stay quiet and

10:00

try to just not be seen that's the first

10:03

adjustment how long did it take you to

10:05

learn house is physically deal with

10:07

people well I mean the problem was that

10:14

didn't work there's nowhere to hide

10:17

yeah everybody is watching everybody and

10:20

there's one thing that convicts are very

10:23

good at and that's sensing weakness yeah

10:25

yeah and you know weakness comes in many

10:30

forms kindness is weakness you you give

10:33

somebody a pack of cigarettes because

10:35

they don't have a pack that's weakness

10:38

and that the word will get around and

10:41

then pretty soon you know you'll be

10:45

handing your cigarettes out every

10:47

canteen day to somebody yeah and

10:50

other things are weakness intelligence

10:52

is weakness I mean that sounds strange

10:56

but the more intelligent you are and the

10:59

more you see things from both sides well

11:02

there is no other side there's just

11:04

survival side and you better see things

11:06

that way and not be worried about what's

11:08

motivating the other guy and what he has

11:12

in his mind so that's an adjustment as

11:16

the Aryan Brotherhood approached you at

11:17

this point well I noticed when in in

11:22

your podcasts maybe Arizona is different

11:26

from California but California had a

11:28

what's called a private family visiting

11:30

program I don't know if you're familiar

11:32

with it no but in California if somebody

11:36

was married to you

11:37

or if someone signed a marriage

11:39

certificate with your name on it they

11:42

could come in and have a 48 hour trailer

11:46

visit so your wife could come in for 48

11:49

hours and this was a really good way to

11:52

I mean looking back on it it was very

11:55

civilized because the stuff you

11:57

described if sort of just violent gang

12:01

rapes to anyone who was unable to defend

12:03

themselves that and also as you probably

12:06

know California is the the land of

12:10

fruits and nuts I mean there's there's

12:13

enough people volunteering to to trick

12:17

in the prison without anyone having to

12:19

force anybody so again that was one of

12:21

the points I wanted to to say was

12:24

different from my experience isn't that

12:26

through the conjugal visit system how

12:28

Tex Watson didn't he have children he

12:33

got women you got a woman pregnant and

12:34

stuff fruta in California Manson's

12:37

murderer

12:37

well Charlie Madison I remember him

12:41

I was on the yard and they had him in a

12:44

monkey cage well dog cage monkey cage

12:47

sort of off the yard but you could see

12:50

him if he went to the fence and he'd sit

12:53

there like some Indian fakir right a

12:56

monk with his dirty uncombed unwashed

12:59

hair and he looked like nothing he just

13:03

looked like a hobo

13:04

some deadbeat but he got more mail in

13:07

one week than every other prisoner in

13:10

the prison did grave women were I mean

13:15

it was just endless pictures and people

13:18

volunteering to miriam and people

13:20

wanting to come visit him people sending

13:22

him money he wouldn't believe it it was

13:23

it was a phenomenon yeah I just finished

13:26

watching the Ted Bundy tapes and I think

13:29

he proposed marries well during the

13:32

trial he brought up our female visits as

13:35

a witness and proposed marriage for

13:36

right burns she was all all about that

13:39

Ted Bundy yeah so Charlie Manson yeah

13:44

that was of course you know one thing I

13:49

have to say about California presence is

13:51

they attracted media stars they

13:55

attracted famous people you saw a famous

13:57

people I mean for example Schwarzenegger

13:59

came to Quentin when I was there and he

14:01

put on on his show and it was quite a

14:03

quite a drama right but yeah so how long

14:06

you in Vacaville for them well in

14:08

Vacaville you do that three-month

14:10

diagnostic and then you get sent back to

14:13

your County for sentencing but in case

14:16

like mine it's just pro forma there's no

14:19

you know I mean I'm getting my time I'm

14:22

not there's no psychiatrist report is

14:25

gonna say well that was his difficult

14:27

upbringing it was his junkie mother I

14:29

mean I came from you know a upper-middle

14:33

class professional family I wasn't

14:36

abused I didn't have a drug problem

14:38

there was no excuse that I was gonna

14:41

make so it was do the crime do your time

14:44

on which yard did you learn that next

14:46

well because of my background I got a I

14:51

got a good break in the sense that I got

14:53

sent to what was called the formal name

14:57

is the Sierra Conservation Center now

15:00

that sounds like what yeah an

15:02

agricultural farm or something but the

15:06

Sara Conservation Center was split it

15:08

was a doughnut-shaped kind of spaceship

15:10

and it was split into one side was media

15:14

and one side was minimum

15:17

I was on the medium side and I'll never

15:20

forget the place because the first meal

15:22

I had I went into the chow hall with

15:26

some guys from my County who were there

15:28

and we sat down and I noticed a strange

15:33

thing these these young guys these

15:35

convicts were cycling along the wall

15:38

with their trays held up over their

15:40

chests I mean they were expecting it

15:44

attacked any minute and I asked what's

15:48

going on with them and this old sort of

15:51

gunfighter I knew Harvey he said these

15:54

guys are from Tracy the gladiator school

15:56

and the if you want to transition out of

16:02

the prison you had to show that you

16:04

could function in a medium-security

16:06

prisoner with other prisoners from

16:09

different gangs and other and and you

16:11

could handle it and not fly off the

16:13

handle so these kids were being sent

16:16

from the Tracy which is called the dwell

16:20

of a vocational Institute but it's it

16:22

was a hardcore I mean there were

16:25

hundreds of stabbings a year there and

16:28

these guys all belong to the gangs and

16:30

they were just cutting each other up any

16:32

chance they got so these guys were

16:34

saddling all along the wall holding

16:36

their trays like this just waiting for

16:39

something to kick off and they got to

16:43

the to the chow and as they go to the

16:47

gel the guy what is back to me he was

16:50

like one of these six foot four

16:53

200-pound Viking gods right he was just

16:57

huge and he had the SS runes on the neck

17:01

and the whole thing and he's standing

17:03

there and suddenly this young Chicano

17:06

runs up and just stabbed him right in

17:09

the back just a perfect shot right

17:13

between the shoulder blades in the back

17:15

into the spine in the spine well I don't

17:18

think hip spine because this Viking went

17:21

berserk he just I never seen anything

17:23

like he turned bright red

17:24

he pulled a shank out of his belt a

17:26

guard tried to grab him he threw the

17:28

guard on the ground so hard the guards

17:29

leg broke

17:30

guards screaming and he turns to go kill

17:33

this this Mexican this Chicano Chicana

17:36

runs towards the other guards with his

17:38

hands up and about four guards tackle

17:41

this guy and they roll in front of our

17:44

table and we're looking as far away as

17:46

you are I'm looking at first the sword

17:51

of cloths handle of the other shank

17:53

which is right against his spine and

17:56

then the bloody point of a welding rod

17:59

which is sticking out his chest and this

18:02

was the first meal I had at the Ciera

18:04

Conservation Center so again I mean the

18:10

California prison system at that time

18:12

was I mean from what I've read it's it

18:17

was the peak of the sort of racial

18:20

violence just total madness how are you

18:23

coping of all this going on around you

18:24

well again it's a reality check you just

18:27

you suddenly again you're thinking I've

18:30

escaped from Vacaville maybe it'll be

18:32

and he easier Street at this

18:35

Conservation Center well I got my lesson

18:38

there because this guy again was one of

18:41

these huge muscular you know and then of

18:45

course afterwards we asked what happened

18:48

like what went down and it turned out

18:51

this the the Viking he'd leaned on this

18:54

kid and told him you've got to borrow my

18:58

clothes now bonnaroo his clothes means

19:01

take those blue jeans give him a knife

19:04

edge crease wash room so he just told

19:06

that you can't okay you have to do this

19:08

he just put it on him and of course it

19:11

turned out that the kid he didn't have

19:14

that much time and he was in for a

19:15

lightweight beef but the other Chicanos

19:18

pulled him aside and they said you have

19:21

to do this hit for a lot of ass that you

19:25

have to do this hit homie or you know

19:29

and so the kid was more afraid of them

19:33

than he was of you know picking up

19:35

another how many years for cowboy attack

19:38

right in front of the guards now I went

19:42

back to my dormitory with my stuff and

19:45

to make my bed and then it turned out

19:47

that he had been in the bed next to me

19:50

they just rolled him up Wow so are they

19:55

coming at you now doing a charge check

19:58

you want to see your paperwork what you

20:00

and fall out kind of stuff well in

20:01

California was different from what you

20:03

described when I was in the prison there

20:06

the prisoners ran the prison in many

20:09

ways so all the clerks and everybody

20:14

they were all prisoners for example when

20:16

I first went to Vacaville I was given

20:19

the job as the inmate reception clerk

20:21

and the only reason I got the job was I

20:23

was the only person who knew how to type

20:25

so I would the guards would hand me a

20:29

sheet giving everybody's crime and how

20:33

long what they were in for and then I

20:35

would type it up

20:36

well if you wanted to know what

20:39

so-and-so was in for you came to me and

20:41

you gave me a couple packs of cigarettes

20:42

and then you found out so they didn't

20:46

pass around charge sheets like that but

20:49

the prisoners always knew because there

20:52

might be a guard in charge of a workshop

20:54

but all the workers were prisoners and

20:58

the lead man was a prisoner and this is

21:01

true in in the offices it was true

21:02

everywhere like in San Quentin for

21:04

example so you described these big bad

21:07

dudes getting attacked would you say the

21:10

big bad fighting kind of guys mortality

21:13

rate is higher because people want to

21:15

prove themselves off they're more

21:17

they're threatened by them versus the

21:19

guy who lays low he may be like not

21:23

targeted because he's not perceived as a

21:24

threat have you ever heard this saying

21:26

the tough guys are all dead well that

21:34

was a saying and any as far as I could

21:36

see it was true the dangerous guy in

21:39

prison the guy who is really dangerous

21:41

is small he's small and quick and he's

21:45

afraid and he's the guy who put the

21:47

knife like that Chicano did right in

21:49

your back the big guys they don't have

21:52

the experience

21:53

they're always confident

21:55

and they've been big so they don't have

21:57

to fight people are afraid of them

21:59

naturally and so that makes you

22:02

overconfident and I've got to say the

22:05

two biggest guys I ever saw in prison

22:08

both were black one I saw as he was

22:11

dying being carried on a North Block

22:13

after he'd been weightlifting bench

22:15

pressing and again they got him when his

22:17

bench pressing and put it right in his

22:19

heart and the second guy he was a great

22:22

big ghetto boy just like a gorilla and

22:27

he they got him when he's asleep crushed

22:30

his skull with a with a weight bar and

22:33

he never woke up he never died but he

22:35

never woke up do you know why they did

22:37

those hits well the the black guy got

22:41

hit in North Block wood because he's a

22:43

member of bgf so there was an ongoing

22:46

race war between the white racists

22:49

against the black racists and then the a

22:51

me the Mexican Mafia against the

22:54

Nestor's nuestra familia so in I think I

22:59

watched one of your podcasts for you you

23:01

said the nuestra familia ran things in

23:04

Arizona the noise stir for me is we saw

23:09

it was what the first big Mexican gang

23:12

were the a me the Mexican Mafia and they

23:14

came from Los Angeles so what happened

23:17

was the nesters in Westar familia were a

23:19

reaction to the Emmy

23:22

so in northern Mexican Chicanos not

23:25

Mexicans who came from little towns like

23:27

Fresno Sacramento all these little

23:30

places in the north they banded together

23:32

and formed their gang so they weren't

23:34

preyed on by the Mexican Mafia so they

23:37

controlled Vacaville solid ed and Tracy

23:41

and the Emmy the Mexican Mafia

23:44

controlled San Quentin and Folsom yeah

23:47

we had the ma the old MA and the new ma

23:50

and there was a wall between the old and

23:53

the new in the prison system and then

23:55

there was a general war between the

23:56

Chicanos and the Mexicans which caused a

24:00

lot of violence over the years so going

24:03

in there then you know having to learn

24:05

the politics and the gang rules and

24:09

what to not what to avoid what not to do

24:11

and that kind of stuff how did you learn

24:12

that stuff well I had one advantage

24:15

which I didn't really appreciate at the

24:18

time but was an advantage and that was

24:21

that I had the right kind of beef I had

24:26

the right kind of crime so she taught

24:29

with the place shootout with the police

24:30

puts me right where you want to be in

24:33

prison yeah being a drug dealer doesn't

24:37

certainly be an inch for vehicular

24:39

manslaughter or any of those kind of

24:41

things doesn't and certainly as you

24:43

pointed out being a sex offender puts

24:46

you at the bottom but being involved in

24:48

shootouts with the police it's like what

24:51

every convict wish he'd done but didn't

24:54

oh well I mean all the guys who carry

25:00

guns but how many actually use them yeah

25:02

yeah so so surely the Aryan Brotherhood

25:05

are coming out and like trying to like

25:07

gates but working for them us do stuff

25:09

know that that movie does shot-caller as

25:11

far as I knew that that that wouldn't

25:15

have happened in quite noir Folsom and

25:17

the reason was the the a/b were very

25:21

tight very select prison gang they only

25:25

wanted the one-percenters they wanted

25:29

the hope to die serious white convicts

25:33

who were racist down to their bones and

25:35

who would do make the hit whatever

25:37

happened because the problem with the

25:41

whites the whites were the within

25:44

California the racial split is one-third

25:47

one-third one-third but the whites have

25:49

the weakest hand and they have the

25:51

weakest hand for the very same reason I

25:53

just look at us you know white people

25:56

going to prison for lightweight crimes

26:00

don't have a long criminal history don't

26:02

have any experience in gangs and so a

26:05

higher percentage of them get preyed on

26:06

and higher percentage of them get chased

26:09

into PC so the a B were very selective

26:14

about who they chose because you know

26:17

your life depended on your brother if

26:20

your brother turned out to be a rat then

26:22

everybody was down forever and nobody

26:23

ever got out so the idea that they would

26:26

pick some stockbroker off just because

26:28

he had a fistfight with a black guy in

26:31

the yard is just a dream world or say

26:35

like something popped off and that won

26:37

all the whites expected to go out and

26:39

represent say like there was gonna be a

26:41

riot or something well I think I tell

26:46

you a story when I was at San Quentin

26:49

they they be sent to wannabes to kill a

26:54

young black guy who they thought was a

26:56

member of the BGF and they caught him on

26:59

the fish tear and they stabbed him about

27:01

20 times and so the word came around

27:04

there's gonna be retaliation the bgf is

27:07

gonna stab some white people for sure

27:08

and so you have two choices when you

27:12

hear something like that you can stay in

27:15

your cell or you can just carry on

27:17

because San Quentin is so mad and these

27:19

things happen so often that if you don't

27:22

I mean if you pay attention that all the

27:23

time you're never gonna come out of your

27:25

cell and a lot of white folks just

27:27

stayed in ourselves I mean I go down to

27:30

the gym and I'd be sometimes the only

27:32

white guy in the gym working out because

27:34

the guys were too nervous to be down

27:37

there because there was no gun rail in

27:40

San Quentin their gun rail officers all

27:42

around the prison but certain places

27:44

don't have gun rail officers so the

27:46

library the classrooms in the gymnasium

27:49

at that time anyway so I was in the

27:53

library a friend of mine has told me

27:55

don't go to the library something's

27:57

gonna kick off for sure I ignored him

27:59

thinking that you know as I just said

28:02

and I'm in there reading the paper and

28:05

sure enough to be GF guys decided to

28:08

kill me so I'm reading the paper luckily

28:11

I had my back up against table so nobody

28:14

could come from behind I'm reading the

28:17

paper and I glanced and the knife is

28:19

right here

28:20

this guy's coming from my neck and so I

28:23

ducked my head and he scrapes top of my

28:25

shoulder and as he misses there I

28:28

glanced in a see some movement and his

28:29

partner's coming on this side

28:31

and he comes at me and he swings and he

28:33

misses this way and so you know at this

28:37

time I went into hyperspeed and I

28:39

crashed into him and I crashed into this

28:42

table the table went over me and him

28:45

sort of crashed through the bookshelves

28:47

and we went down I ended up on top of

28:50

him his partner came over to give me one

28:52

and he scratched me in the ribs here and

28:55

at that moment the alarm bells went and

29:00

this guy he figured he'd already got me

29:02

so he just spraying over the counter to

29:04

run and as soon as he sprang I turned to

29:06

face him and this guy who I was on top

29:08

of brandt broke and ran so i survived

29:11

that one what was the layout like sign

29:14

coins a lot of people are fascinated by

29:16

that prison like how old was it what did

29:18

it look like inside and how many

29:19

prisoners sankirtan was the first prison

29:21

i think the first or the second Folsom

29:24

or San Quentin built in the 1800s and so

29:27

it's massive stone Folsom it's got great

29:29

it looks like a Roman temple with these

29:31

giant stones San Quentin parts of it

29:34

look like the gates of Hell I mean

29:36

you've got great big irons like doors

29:39

massive and you know that just you look

29:44

about this big and you're walking around

29:46

looking like you're in you're on the way

29:48

to hell and there's no getting out it

29:50

it's none of it it's it doesn't most

29:53

American prisons now look like junior

29:55

high schools with flex wire and towers

29:57

around them right but not those two

29:59

we're talking light in the seventies now

30:01

and before mass incarceration late

30:03

seventies yeah and was it like the

30:05

stereotypical guards with the chewing

30:07

tobacco and let's aviator sunglasses

30:09

well the guards were alright because

30:12

basically they they wanted they just

30:15

wanted an easy life so if you weren't

30:18

stabbing somebody in front of them and

30:20

you weren't throwing shit at them you're

30:23

doing something very any social they

30:25

wouldn't bother you it was different

30:27

from like from what I can see goes on

30:30

now it was like we were left to it and

30:32

so in some ways San Quentin was like it

30:37

was like a mini I don't know you call it

30:39

a pirates kind of like one of those

30:42

towns in the Caribbean it's just full of

30:44

pirates

30:45

and we were all there and you didn't

30:49

have that but they didn't care to get in

30:51

your head put it that way there was no

30:53

there were no trips to the psychiatrist

30:56

nobody's asking you know maybe you

30:58

weren't obliged to come up with some

31:00

narrative to explain your criminality I

31:02

mean and certainly in Canada probably

31:05

the same in you case the prisoners have

31:08

to come up to some narrative because

31:09

these you know the women on the parole

31:11

board require it requires some tears

31:14

some remorse and it requires some

31:17

narrative whether it's you as a junkie

31:19

because your mother died when you were

31:21

young or you were abused by your father

31:23

or something like that

31:24

did anyone act up to the point where you

31:26

saw the guards in San Quentin shoot them

31:29

well you could be shot very easily if

31:31

you started Nathan somebody on the yard

31:33

you were just shot down how many times

31:35

did you see that then the many 14s I saw

31:37

them shoot but everybody knew what the

31:39

guards would do see people didn't fight

31:41

on them in fact to be honest in contrast

31:45

to your story there were no fistfights

31:47

hardly in San Quentin because the only

31:50

people who had fistfights were cellmates

31:52

you're selling no one else fists for any

31:57

confrontation that turned into a

31:59

confrontation somebody got knifed or

32:00

piped or thrown off the deer or so that

32:07

your story sounded a lot like County

32:10

Jail to me yeah where the tough guys

32:13

sort of come over and just beat up some

32:15

kid and take his stuff and in San

32:18

Quentin that doesn't happen because what

32:19

didn't happen then because you if you're

32:24

black and you go and take some white guy

32:26

stuff all he has to do is appeal to the

32:28

a B and some of them come and cut your

32:30

throat yeah or maybe we'll push him to

32:33

make the hit so there's a lot of

32:36

pressure like that not to give me an

32:39

example after that attack I had with the

32:44

the black guerrilla family guys tried to

32:46

get me I was they did an investigation

32:49

and I was sent to North Block

32:52

segregation and I was in there for weeks

32:55

and weeks and weeks but

32:57

I don't have any tattoos I don't belong

32:59

to any gangs and so pretty soon I was

33:03

released well the guards came to me

33:05

the female administrator came and wanted

33:08

me to sign into protection to go into PC

33:11

she said you really want to go into PC

33:13

and I said no I really don't and she

33:17

said no you really do because you know

33:19

get the bgf tried to do a hit on you and

33:22

maybe they're gonna try doing hit on you

33:23

tomorrow to finish the job and I said no

33:26

I really don't and so they said you've

33:29

got you they tried this even called my

33:31

mother and got her to come and try and

33:33

plead with me going to PC but I didn't

33:35

want I didn't want to because of course

33:36

why you should know you get marked with

33:39

that brush and you're done yeah most of

33:41

my craziest stories were in the Maricopa

33:44

County Jail where I was housed for

33:46

twenty six months and the jail it's on

33:49

sentence so people just coming in and

33:51

out and it's completely transitory so

33:54

then you've got all this violence going

33:55

on but you're talking about after now

33:57

your sentence you in the prison system

33:59

and everybody knows everybody in the

34:02

prison it's the more settled so there's

34:04

not that chaos but going back to

34:07

something you just touched on the how

34:09

did you get along with your cellmates

34:11

well I mean fortunately in Vacaville

34:16

they don't give you a summary because

34:18

they want to they don't want predatory

34:21

behavior going on right the beginning in

34:23

the diagnostic period in ceará

34:27

Conservation Center was dorm system

34:29

there was no selling in San Quentin

34:31

it was usually double sell but sometimes

34:34

you could get away with single cell I

34:37

mean I I chased off a guy from North

34:40

Block who they just dumped in my cell I

34:42

just told him no you're not coming in

34:44

here and he looked at me and said I'm

34:46

from North Block so I don't give a fuck

34:47

where you're from you know coming in

34:48

here and because I was trying to keep a

34:51

cell open for for my friend a friend of

34:53

mine who was coming from Folsom and I

34:55

wanted to sell to be open because it was

34:57

open then he could moving in my cell

34:59

without any drama but if this guy was

35:01

there it wouldn't work so so if you told

35:04

him he couldn't come in your cell did

35:05

that then create a problem with the

35:07

guards did they come to you and say why

35:08

the fuck are you letting him in yourself

35:09

no because he

35:11

not gonna dry snitch like that okay you

35:13

know there's direct snitching where you

35:17

for example just say he did this and the

35:20

guards read it in the book but there's

35:22

dry snitching too

35:23

now the dry snitch somebody for example

35:27

this fella here is punching him in the

35:29

head I'm a policeman now if you look at

35:32

me and then look at them even though you

35:34

don't say anything that's dry snitching

35:36

somebody yeah but if you can't get in

35:38

your cell he's gonna go back to the

35:40

guards and say I need a new cell and

35:42

they're gonna say what we just told you

35:44

to go in cell d7 don't go back to d7

35:47

that's just so he'll just say I really

35:48

need to go to another side I say got ya

35:50

yeah and they understand that okay so

35:53

there's more leeway back then yeah there

35:55

wasn't it wasn't I mean I've seen

35:57

pictures of saying quite now in the gym

35:58

we used to work out in now looks like

36:00

it's got 500 people and you know bunk

36:03

beds right so did you end up getting

36:06

your friend in yourself yeah I did for

36:09

that looks thing he did yeah and because

36:13

you know maybe it where you were the

36:17

guards made those kind of designations

36:19

but in San Quentin if two guys wanted to

36:23

go to the same cell they just gave some

36:25

cigarettes to the inmate block clerk and

36:28

he would just get the guard to just you

36:31

just have him paper to sign and the

36:33

guard was sign in all kinds of documents

36:34

every day and he just signed that one -

36:36

it was sort of like you know like one of

36:39

these comedies you see dad's army you

36:41

said yeah we entered Italian mafia guy

36:44

was running out building a little bit in

36:46

the jail and he completely corrupted the

36:49

guards and at night we're all locked

36:50

down he's outside smoking with the

36:53

guards giving them orders and we could

36:55

just go to him and like say we want this

36:57

guy to be our cell mate the next day the

36:59

guards would just bring you a new cell I

37:02

never seen anything like it I thought

37:05

you know you see these movies like what

37:07

is it Sopranos or Goodfellas and stuff

37:10

like that whether the girls cooking up

37:12

the stuff in the prison and the

37:13

corrupting things but I thought that was

37:15

just fiction

37:16

and then I actually saw it with my own

37:17

eyes in the county jail well I mean the

37:20

Italian mafia they've got serious I mean

37:23

everybody's heard of them

37:24

you've heard of them yeah if you think

37:26

of it from the other side if you've got

37:28

reach into the community what's a guard

37:31

want to do antagonizing you I mean

37:33

really what there's a guard why would he

37:36

want to do that yeah just do your job

37:39

and you know open the doors shut the

37:40

doors take him to child bring him back

37:42

but to individually antagonize prisoners

37:44

yeah there's no sense to it and it's

37:48

easy to bribe them as well because

37:50

they're you know a lot much panel of

37:52

stuff taking the danger what was so

37:54

special about this guy you wanted him as

37:55

you sell me

37:56

well I mean if you're if you have a

38:00

friend someone you can trust

38:02

that's who you wanted to sell me so if

38:05

guys run into the cell you want a guy

38:07

who'll jump with you stand

38:09

shoulder-to-shoulder and fight what you

38:11

don't want is a guy who'll just lean

38:12

back and let them take you out and

38:15

that's basically it that's the

38:18

fundamental rule if you have some guy

38:20

who you don't trust then you know you

38:25

get taken out any day but if people know

38:27

those cells are pretty small and if two

38:30

guys are standing shoulder-to-shoulder

38:31

no one's coming in you can you can stop

38:34

it and it doesn't matter if they have a

38:36

knife or not because most joint knives

38:38

are like I said welding rods are sort of

38:41

roughly shaved bit of metal or I mean

38:45

nowadays they even fool around with

38:47

razor blades on melted toothbrushes so I

38:49

mean you know it's not that much of an

38:54

issue was this a friend from the earlier

38:57

part of the prison Vacaville I was a

38:58

friend from prior to preneur from Sierra

39:01

conservation saying okay well I mean you

39:05

have a choice you're in prison you got

39:07

to make some friends somehow so who do

39:10

you who do you make as a friend now you

39:12

got all these sort of tribal white

39:15

racists milling around with you know

39:17

huge swastikas I mean I saw guys with

39:19

swp like in block letters on their

39:23

forehead swp well this is your your

39:27

history lesson supreme white power okay

39:30

you know white power down the back arms

39:34

Rasika here where the Germans uniforms

39:36

used to have SS runes on the neck yeah

39:39

this a B member who tried to jack me up

39:42

once had a swastika on his cheekbone

39:44

right here now if you put a swastika on

39:47

your cheekbone or supreme white power on

39:50

your forehead what kind of future do you

39:52

think you've got I mean do you think the

39:55

gang encourages young people to do that

39:57

so when they get out they got a job

39:58

interview this is just under 7 well I

40:01

mean you couldn't think of a better way

40:04

of crippling your chances in life yeah

40:06

so I used to look at the tattoos and

40:09

plus when I was in jail was the the

40:12

height of the AIDS epidemic now how

40:15

anybody could have a joint tattoo with

40:19

with some guy using an old piece of

40:21

piano wire or something he found on the

40:23

ground with I don't know what an engine

40:26

taken out of a tape deck and make a Ted

40:29

gun and how you'd let somebody use do

40:32

that with carbon black and make tattoos

40:34

I was just absolute madness I mean that

40:37

was HIV now it's what Hep C yeah mm

40:40

hopefully you know there's other where I

40:41

was held you said that uh nay be tried

40:44

to trick you or something I'll try that

40:45

tried to test you in some way whoa whoa

40:47

I made a mistake could Sierra

40:52

Conservation Center one summer's day and

40:54

the mistake was I took off my prison

40:57

boots and I was barefoot now it was one

41:01

of these beautiful days you lay in there

41:03

you're looking at the sky and you think

41:05

well you know things were already so I

41:08

took off my boots and we took off you

41:10

know just sunbathing a bit my friend

41:12

says to me we're going to get us some

41:14

ice creams I say okay so I go over to

41:16

the to the canteen to get some ice

41:18

creams and as I'm standing in line this

41:22

a B member is behind me and he says buy

41:28

me an ice cream bro that's all he says

41:32

he says buy me an ice cream bro now

41:34

that's the moment of truth in the jail

41:37

system it might not sound like much you

41:40

know maybe you could just buy him an ice

41:41

cream that'd be fine

41:44

he says buy me an ice cream bro and I

41:47

buy the two ice creams and I turn and

41:49

look at him and he's just covered with

41:51

muscles and the tattoos and the guy

41:53

looks like a caveman

41:54

I mean he's straight out of the fifth

41:56

century a berserkering you know I told

42:03

him I ain't your bro and he says you

42:06

disrespecting me and I says I'm not

42:08

doing anything with you and I walked off

42:10

and he starts shouting at me

42:12

come on coming to the come into the the

42:15

dorm and I'll sort you out you fucking

42:17

coward bla bla bla bla bla and I don't

42:20

turn my back I didn't make a move I just

42:22

continued walking but the moment of

42:26

truth has come right now so I talked to

42:28

my friend I said you know this guy he

42:30

says yeah it's stormer he was the the

42:32

Vacaville heavyweight champion no

42:35

middleweight champion I think boxing and

42:38

he tells me a story how he just took

42:40

this black guy to pieces ring and I'm

42:43

thinking great not only is this guy a

42:45

psycho but he knows how to fight but you

42:50

know my friend says we'll look just wait

42:53

two or three hours until he cools down

42:56

and then we'll do something I said what

42:59

we gonna do he says well it's too early

43:01

to get a pipe or something

43:03

I said well whatever I'm just gonna

43:05

confront him and so about three hours

43:08

later he's over playing cards with all

43:10

his you know

43:12

hangers on and we walk up and I look him

43:16

in the eyes and I tell him stormer I'm

43:18

ready for the for the dorm now let's go

43:21

and he just looks at me and he says

43:24

ain't no thing ain't no thing so it's

43:28

just a heart check you strike me then as

43:33

a bit of a lone wolf what you think that

43:35

is that accurate my tendency is that way

43:39

yeah did you make other friends over

43:41

than you sell me over this period of

43:43

time

43:43

well what finally happened was in San

43:46

Quentin I had a job in education as an

43:49

education clerk and I've been laying

43:53

like there's rules in San Quentin if you

43:55

don't want to get killed one don't get

43:58

involved in heroin business we don't be

44:00

front and drugs to people or owing

44:03

people that's one rule too

44:07

you know don't be chasing after someone

44:10

else's Punk right I mean that's that's

44:13

another one of these was a lot of that

44:14

going on well not a lot but if somebody

44:18

was that way inclined and you were

44:19

trying to you know cut his grass so to

44:23

speak well you know I mean that was a

44:27

problem but of course the overriding

44:29

problem was this race stuff I mean that

44:32

was the height of the race war so the a

44:35

B they made themselves famous because

44:38

they were the smallest tip but they

44:41

would always make the hit and event you

44:46

got to the point right before I got

44:48

there where they were just going out

44:50

every morning and hunting blacks the

44:53

gate the the doors would crack open and

44:55

these guys would find somebody to stab

44:57

because basically they wanted to

44:59

terrorize the blacks into like a peace

45:03

treaty

45:05

the problem was do you know how the

45:08

heebie was started no can you please

45:09

tell us how the AP was that's it I have

45:11

a general idea but you're in Cali and

45:13

cutteth Cali was where these thoughts

45:15

you probably got a lot more information

45:16

than me well basically what happened is

45:19

some of the older cons have been been in

45:22

jail for a long time they were all right

45:24

because they've been in jail and they

45:26

know people but the Mexicans I mean the

45:29

Chicanos and the blacks were just

45:31

predating these young whites and even

45:34

whites who normally would have been okay

45:37

just they had no hope because these

45:40

black gangs were deep I mean they could

45:42

put together 50 100 members and they

45:45

were all over the place and you know how

45:49

many friends do you have they're gonna

45:50

like fight their death with you right

45:53

Tommy

45:55

so these guys they decide we've got to

46:01

do something and

46:04

there was some guys that belonged to

46:06

some Irish I think was some biker gang

46:09

or something but they had a shamrock you

46:13

know yeah and it started from a core of

46:16

about six to ten and these guys who say

46:18

we've got to do something and they

46:20

started so what they did is they're very

46:22

selective they only wanted guys who

46:25

wouldn't um

46:26

what embarrassed the tip ring and to do

46:31

that they had to see not just one heart

46:33

check but they had to see the guy go

46:35

through a lot of stuff I mean get blood

46:40

on a steel well I mean that one guy the

46:43

most famous a bee guy was the one who

46:45

he's down forever in that Supermax

46:49

on YouTube yeah he took out two guards

46:53

making his hit Wow

46:55

they interrupted them it played so he

46:56

took them up too and of course I think

46:59

he's just 24 hours a day lockup for he's

47:01

been there like 30 years anyway so the a

47:04

be they they got recognized as being a

47:11

prison gang by the guards and as soon as

47:12

that happened they started getting taken

47:15

off the main lines and sent to Folsom so

47:18

then they started getting smarter and

47:21

the guys didn't announce they're a B

47:24

they they played it cool and laid back

47:26

in the cut or they said well I'm not

47:28

involved then anymore and maybe they'd

47:29

cover up at that do or something because

47:32

otherwise I mean you were just throwing

47:35

your hands up and said Here I am take me

47:36

away right for you know all day in

47:39

isolation you just go to the adjustment

47:41

Center AC and you should be there

47:43

forever so the a be represented the

47:50

whites but they weren't I mean as an

47:56

ideology what do they represent I mean

48:00

for them the blacks were what do they

48:03

call him Toad's hams hambone spear

48:06

chuckers chimps whatever you want I mean

48:09

it was just abuse all the way around and

48:14

their idea was if one white gets stabbed

48:17

we go stab a black doesn't really matter

48:21

who it is anybody will do well the end

48:23

result of that is just gonna be total

48:26

anarchy and like you know how can anyone

48:28

do their time in a situation like that

48:30

so for me it was very simple if you were

48:34

fucking with me then you had a problem

48:36

with me and I had a problem with you and

48:39

we'd work it out somehow but I'm

48:42

certainly not gonna go out well to give

48:44

you an example after I got out of North

48:46

Block after that stabbing this Nazi tip

48:49

came from solid after a race right about

48:52

eight of them and they came onto the

48:53

line in San Quentin and the word came

48:57

back to me that they were saying either

48:59

I had to make it hit on some blacks or I

49:02

had to check in that was where it was

49:06

and as soon as I heard that I said well

49:10

we got to do something so I talked to a

49:14

friend of mine I said where are they and

49:15

he said where they're down on the yard

49:16

near the oil garden and so we went down

49:20

there my friend and I and there were

49:22

five of them there and they became I

49:27

think you might know the name the Nazi

49:29

lowrider yes that that was where it

49:31

started with those guys and so I went

49:35

down there and the guys sitting there

49:37

the leader of him and I said to him you

49:41

know who I am and you know why I'm here

49:43

now

49:44

I don't hold with that racist bullshit I

49:46

don't have any tattoos I ain't gonna

49:49

stab somebody I don't know I'll stab

49:51

somebody who fucks with me so the

49:53

question is are you fucking with me

49:57

because if you are fucking with me we

49:59

can deal with it right now and he just

50:02

looks at me and the other ones just look

50:05

at that's it that was the end of it it

50:11

was squashed so it was like I mean we're

50:15

fighting people like me we're fighting a

50:17

losing battle because that those that

50:20

the racist gang stuff came out of well

50:24

the a/b were like that but if they

50:26

didn't try and control the whole prison

50:27

but

50:28

that racist gang stuff that you're

50:29

describing comes out of those people in

50:32

Youth Authority who then twenty years

50:34

later or you know 30 year old convicts

50:38

you know whatever 40 year old convicts

50:40

and then they try and force everybody

50:43

into that scene but when I was there

50:47

you could still if you were up for it I

50:50

mean if you didn't mind confronting him

50:54

right right there on the moment yes it's

50:59

become a massive murder fire and drugs

51:01

business in and out of prison now across

51:03

the country hasn't it quick question on

51:06

something you mentioned you said that if

51:08

they saw the abies were patched in if it

51:10

was obvious they were abies they send

51:12

them over to Folsom why did they send

51:14

him to Folsom well they'd send him

51:16

somewhere they didn't have Pelican Bay

51:18

or those you know high tech adjustment

51:21

centers so Folsom had an adjustment

51:23

Center Folsom i mean San Quentin had an

51:25

adjustment center but there only so many

51:27

cells and if you bag up a whole prison

51:29

gang you know how many guys is that

51:32

gonna be 50 100 were you gonna put them

51:34

yeah so Folsom is a good choice you had

51:38

a man what was it mr. king yeah Jamie

51:41

Morgan Kane yeah yeah he said he was at

51:43

Folsom for a long time so he certainly

51:45

probably know more about it oh oh he was

51:47

on Folsom one base I mean one night so I

51:49

can't report much yeah yeah so how long

51:52

you into your sentence now on this first

51:55

then how many years did you do actually

51:58

sir before he got released well I did I

52:01

did about five in the United States all

52:04

in and then about another 11 and a half

52:06

excuse me another six and a half in

52:08

Canada when did the escape arise was

52:10

that in California yeah what possessed

52:13

you to escape then why did you want to

52:14

do that well it's family history really

52:18

my grandfather was captured by the

52:21

Germans and he escaped seven times and

52:24

got recaptured six times so it's in your

52:27

DNA and one of his stories was middle of

52:31

the night rain lashing down he's on the

52:34

Dutch border German Dutch border

52:36

crawling through the mud and he comes

52:38

through a culvert and he sees a tree and

52:41

he puts

52:41

hand to pull himself forward except it

52:43

was a German guards boot law border

52:46

guard and so I thought to myself I can't

52:52

I got to escape at least once to sort of

52:55

you know inspired by the legend yes and

52:58

my grandfather

52:59

so what fall process what entered the

53:01

escape how long did you plan it

53:03

were there accomplices I tried to escape

53:06

once before I I'd plan to escape all

53:09

along but the problem was I wasn't

53:12

equipped for escape I didn't know I mean

53:15

if you gave me a paperclip I couldn't

53:18

open a pair of handcuffs so that was no

53:21

good and I certainly didn't know any

53:25

locksmith theory or any of these kind of

53:26

tricky stuff and so I thought to myself

53:29

I'll just wait and see what comes up and

53:32

something came up

53:33

I was sitting in the old county jails

53:35

yard and this Indian sits down beside me

53:40

and he and he says to me there's one

53:45

strand of mesh fencing that's come loose

53:49

from the weld and I said yeah he says

53:54

yeah and we look up and sure enough the

53:58

thick heavy what melt

54:01

I mean mesh fencing had been welded onto

54:03

the steel rims but one piece had come

54:08

loose now what I didn't know on what he

54:11

did know was that one piece loose on a

54:14

mesh fence means there's no fence at all

54:16

if you work at it and so we looked over

54:21

at the guard and there was a guard

54:22

watching us all two hours we were out in

54:26

the yard except that he loves zane grey

54:29

he loved dusters so he's always reading

54:32

these dusters so we noticed that there

54:36

was a fence like a window post and he

54:39

was reading and he could see the yard

54:40

except this one little window strip and

54:44

so I sat and I looked and I I figured

54:47

out that the angle from that window

54:50

strip expanded as as you go back and so

54:53

at one point it was about two feet

54:55

so I stood there Cornel climbed up and

55:00

while this guy was reading his book

55:02

right in front of God and everybody I

55:03

mean

55:04

Cornell's working the fence we couldn't

55:06

get it open that one day so anyway we go

55:09

back inside and I'm excited as can be

55:13

right thinking well gonna have another

55:14

kick at the can here except somebody

55:19

dropped a wire to the guards and I got

55:23

bagged up about an hour later but he

55:25

didn't and the next day Cornell just

55:30

grabbed the tallest guy he found told

55:32

him to stand there climbed up started

55:34

working the fence got his foot in pushed

55:36

it open climbed up on the roof jumped

55:39

off the jumped off the county jail roof

55:42

now this little Marine who was who

55:45

deserted he just suddenly broke and

55:47

climbed up the guy like a monkey and he

55:48

went out except that he jumped off the

55:53

roof and broke both his ankles and they

55:55

found him behind the dumpster there

55:57

crying and moaning but anyway that was

55:59

my first attempt to escape and it never

56:01

happened so I missed that one how long

56:04

before the next attempt the next one

56:07

came about some two years later

56:10

something like that how many years in T

56:12

sentence on you know well the the

56:14

trouble is those were called five to

56:16

life's and I sing so you never really

56:18

knew how long your sentence was so that

56:20

motivated you to want to escape because

56:22

there were guys who done 12 15 years on

56:26

a five to life it just depends on what

56:29

happens to you inside so they don't

56:32

actually in those days they didn't have

56:33

to take you back for another crime you

56:36

get into a beef and crack someone's head

56:39

open it goes onto your jacket and then

56:41

the parole board see it and say well

56:43

we'll see in a few years there was

56:46

traveling he was passed in years past

56:49

and in fact while I was inside they got

56:52

rid of those sentences because they were

56:54

seen as unfair well that they were maybe

56:59

cruel and unusual punishment because

57:01

prisoners never actually knew how long

57:03

they were gonna serve and some people

57:04

got out in two and a half years and

57:06

other people did ten years on the same

57:08

part of the of being on sentence for me

57:11

26 months remand facing a big you know

57:14

life ends at 200 years at one point they

57:15

told me that uncertainty was worse than

57:21

anything worse than the violence worse

57:23

than the cockroaches worse than the heat

57:26

just never just thinking you could

57:28

possibly never ever get your life back I

57:30

just felt that just slowly sending me

57:33

insane so I know where you're coming

57:35

from definitely well fortunately while I

57:38

was in they brought in determinate

57:39

sentencing yeah

57:41

so we're just a just the signature of

57:46

the governor on a piece of paper

57:47

suddenly everybody had fixed dates and

57:50

when they had fixed dates that means you

57:52

didn't have to perform for the parole

57:53

board anymore

57:54

so nobody wants bothered with

57:56

psychologists and psychiatrists anymore

57:58

there was no more creeping around the

58:01

chapel trying to get the priests on your

58:02

side I wanted it to be a hundred percent

58:16

sure so I didn't want any convicts

58:18

involved because unfortunately convicts

58:23

have a tendency to sell information like

58:25

that for their program or to get out

58:30

earlier for something and so I didn't

58:33

want anyone to know so there were no

58:34

convicts involved in my story so I just

58:37

waited till I got sent out to the

58:40

forestry camp I should probably know all

58:43

these forest fires you see on the news

58:45

being fought in California ninety

58:48

percent of the of the actual forest

58:49

fighters or convicts who were basically

58:52

told do you want to get out well there

58:54

you go and so of course if they get

58:57

burned up in the fire nobody's crying

58:59

too much so so you were assigned its a

59:04

fight a fire firefighting that's that

59:07

was the job this wasn't planned then

59:08

this was just you didn't get the job to

59:10

do that well no I I was again I was

59:13

always in a good position because I knew

59:15

how to type I mean in the kingdom of the

59:17

blind the one-eyed man is king right

59:20

so that man I could be the clerk so the

59:22

clerk jobs were always sweet jobs

59:24

because instead of being in the fireline

59:27

worked in 20 hours in the hot Sun and

59:29

smoke and cinders and all the rest of it

59:31

you said at your typewriter and drank

59:35

hot coffees and you know pondered your

59:38

next whatever you were doing course or

59:41

you know you want to write bad poetry

59:42

you could do that too

59:44

can you take us through the day of your

59:46

escape well it was it was just pretty

59:48

simple I just arranged for a friend to

59:51

you know park couple kilometers down the

59:54

road and just wait for me late at night

59:58

so I crept out of the out of the

60:02

dormitory made sure that the guards

60:05

because of course being the clerk he

60:06

knew when the guards were doing their

60:07

rounds and what was going on so you just

60:10

chose a time when the guards were having

60:12

a snooze because of course it's you know

60:15

three o'clock in the morning in a

60:16

forestry camp so the way it was actually

60:21

there's no work there's no drama behind

60:23

the escape it was pretty easy was the

60:26

drama of being on the road the drama was

60:28

being on the run because if you're an

60:32

escapee you've got no ID no money no job

60:36

no place to stay and no future prospects

60:41

what about the person who picked you up

60:43

that that person provide you with

60:44

anything no he was he just come down

60:47

from Canada just as a tourist basically

60:49

he had this old car and he knew I was in

60:51

jail so I just got the word from can you

60:54

pick me up and he didn't live there he

60:56

didn't have a house he didn't have

60:57

anything so he wasn't this I didn't want

61:00

to stick around I what did you go well

61:04

this is the thing I the only place you

61:07

can go is Skid Row I mean realistically

61:09

so I went down to the Tenderloin in San

61:13

Francisco and you know there you are

61:16

with whatever you've got you know I had

61:18

had a few dollars from the prison that

61:21

I'd you know save a few $20 bills and I

61:24

managed to get a room for a week down in

61:26

the Tenderloin and then of course what

61:29

do you do there you are

61:32

unfortunately at that time the

61:35

Tenderloin was probably still true now

61:36

is just filled with junkies so you got

61:39

all these junkies looking like feral

61:41

rats sort of looking for anything that

61:43

can move or they can steal so you got a

61:47

lot of competition so I was down at the

61:52

Caliphate store shoplifting meat and and

61:55

the night I buy the vegetables and

61:57

potatoes and shoplift the meat and the

61:59

cheese and then I was down

62:01

well again I started boosting out of

62:03

stores to sort of decorate my apartment

62:05

that I mean it was a it was a serious

62:09

hand-to-mouth existence hunting and

62:11

gathering just like we used to do ten

62:13

thousand years ago did you feel

62:16

unusually alive at this moment yeah of

62:18

course you do

62:19

because you're living by your wits you

62:21

know I mean the the problem with

62:24

middle-class life that we lead that we

62:26

grew up to is in many cases is just

62:29

boring you sit in classrooms boom bored

62:31

then you graduate to universities or sit

62:35

in classrooms being bored and then you

62:38

get a job and you can be bored in a job

62:40

and go back and watch boring TV I mean

62:42

that there's got to be more in life so

62:46

as a young man I thought I've got to

62:48

live life I mean I'm a young guy it's

62:50

time to do young guy things and I'm

62:52

always like studying history so there

62:54

were lots of examples so as soon as I

62:58

hooked up with my crime partner we just

63:02

went on spree so you're free you use a

63:05

skid row and now you're hooking up with

63:07

a crime partner was this person

63:09

materialized from well he'd been

63:11

released

63:11

you know I'm parole this is someone from

63:14

Queens yes not Quentin at the time was

63:16

Sierra the Sierra conservation I'll

63:18

trace through there so all of a sudden

63:21

you got somebody is two of you how did

63:23

he find you well you know you have you

63:25

have names and common people you know

63:27

you know name numbers and phone books so

63:31

all of a sudden there's two and then you

63:33

can just run amuck and that's what we

63:34

did he had a list of of drug dealers

63:37

that we could rob and or what we call

63:41

the collecting on debts or whatever the

63:43

description and that was but basically

63:45

we were robbing you

63:45

so you've gone from like a skinny nerdy

63:48

hippie looking guy before you got

63:49

arrested

63:50

so this buffed up guy now getting out of

63:52

prison clicking up with another prisoner

63:55

to robbing drug dealers

63:56

that's quite a transformation so the

63:58

problem is what do you do when you're on

64:00

escape only in a sense I mean you know

64:04

on television or in the movies the guy

64:06

has a friend who gives him all this

64:07

excellent fake ID and you know you fall

64:10

into a job and you watch banshee right

64:13

the guy because the deputy sheriff you

64:14

know I mean that's not what happens in

64:17

the real world most escapees like

64:20

Cornell I was just telling you about

64:21

that India and you did escape from the

64:23

Yolo County Jail they found him three

64:25

months later destitute asleep on a bus

64:29

bench at Las Vegas bus station I mean

64:33

that's that's where you end up you know

64:35

escapees usually escapees go straight

64:37

back to the girlfriend's house to her

64:38

mom's house and get arrested like six

64:40

hours later whatever they I said sermon

64:44

not to do that I want to stay out for

64:45

longer than six hours would be

64:46

embarrassing well I mean you know in a

64:51

sense you know you're going back to jail

64:52

so you don't embarrass yourself yeah so

64:56

we ran amok and we had fun I must say

65:00

robbing drug dealers was entertaining

65:03

are you an adrenaline junkie I don't I

65:06

don't know if it's that but I mean I'm

65:08

not a I'm not a tough guy that's first

65:10

thing you're not a tough guy and I'm not

65:13

an adrenaline junkie in a sense of

65:15

skydiving and climbing mountain rock

65:17

climbing with no help or anything like

65:19

that but I must say robbing drug dealers

65:22

warm my heart it was um

65:25

it was like it was like being a pirate

65:28

because drug dealers collect not lots of

65:30

nice stuff and I had nothing in my

65:34

apartment and the first people the first

65:38

people we hit were the guy was there

65:42

were two drug dealers working for the

65:43

Hells Angels and they were somewhere and

65:47

did you know they were working for the

65:49

AJ yeah there's a little bit of a

65:51

kamikaze thing well no because once

65:56

you're on escape what what does it

65:58

matter fuck everyone

65:59

I mean you're basically a wolf and on in

66:03

in the paddock with the Sheep right yeah

66:05

and so anyway so that the story was that

66:09

these people have been in fronted a

66:11

pound of coke by somebody we knew his

66:14

the wife of somebody we knew and they

66:16

just stiffed her because he knew he was

66:18

in jail so we felt like the white

66:20

knights on this one yeah and so it went

66:23

on as it usually as it does you know

66:25

sneaking around reckon ordering the

66:27

place the knock on the door kicked the

66:30

door off the hinges he flies through the

66:32

air guns guns out but the unfortunate

66:35

part was that the Hells Angel I guess he

66:38

was a Hells Angel showed up in the

66:40

middle of all this right and and it was

66:44

it was it was really exciting because

66:47

there were three doors I could hear his

66:49

chopper sort of pulling to the garage

66:51

and there were three doors he could be

66:53

coming out of and we didn't know which

66:54

one it was right so we're standing

66:56

waiting for him and suddenly the door

67:00

opens in there he is and he's the

67:01

quintessential biker you know with the

67:03

bandanna and the beard and the

67:05

sunglasses and all the accoutrements

67:07

ring and he looks at me as I say freeze

67:11

but he didn't really believe me I guess

67:13

I was sweating too much and looking you

67:15

know but my partner put the gun under

67:18

his jawbone

67:19

he believed that right so we tied him up

67:22

and well I mean there were drugs there

67:27

was money there was leather coats racks

67:31

of champagne

67:32

you know whatever you want Boas speakers

67:36

the latest of everything so I died and

67:39

gone to heaven we spent about three

67:41

hours there packing up everything took

67:43

his chopper took everything the drugs I

67:45

mean we left the girl for I didn't hurt

67:46

him didn't do anything like that so

67:48

again once it's like the Pirates once

67:51

they have one good hit they get excited

67:53

and I think cause this all it takes

67:56

right I shouldn't be talking like this

67:59

because you were a drug deal

68:04

so beware of convicts and escape well I

68:12

mean as much as the information came in

68:15

we do them so I don't know might have

68:17

been a dozen information like people

68:19

buying drugs and those people would say

68:20

guys off yeah they got a piece of the

68:22

action and because because the people

68:25

are really like drug dealers right they

68:27

know drug dealers are making money off

68:28

them so they resent it so it wasn't hard

68:31

to get information about drug dealers

68:33

they just free just involve robbing drug

68:36

dealers or they exhausting of course I

68:39

mean we because you're basically a gun

68:45

for hire in a way so we got hired one

68:49

one job we got was we worked for the mob

68:51

in in Bay Area and there was at that

68:55

time the Hells Angels were they decided

68:58

to go into the sandwich truck business

69:00

and in typical Hells Angels fashion

69:03

their idea of dealing with the

69:05

competition was throwing grenades into

69:07

the trucks of the their competition so

69:11

they started to burn about three or four

69:12

trucks and they were chasing people off

69:14

their spots and they were developing

69:16

this big chain of OH

69:19

anyway we got hired to bodyguard these

69:21

sandwich trucks with a grenade in the

69:23

trucks with people in them

69:24

well no they wouldn't blow people up Oh

69:26

Chloe they would wait for example you

69:28

drive the truck back to your house it's

69:30

parked outside your house just puts a

69:32

grenade underneath yeah gas tank in a

69:35

way she goes you can look that up it's

69:38

you know they call it the sandwich truck

69:42

wars anyway so we we got a job if we had

69:46

to cruise the the mob also owned

69:49

sandwich trucks a chain of sandwich

69:51

trucks so we got to cruise all their

69:53

sites looking for any evil looking

69:55

bikers hanging around so that was one of

69:57

the jobs again what year are we in

69:59

though oh where are we this time I guess

70:03

around 1978 maybe something like that

70:08

okay under the spray I mean any other

70:11

crazy stuff on the spree or well you

70:15

know of course there are a few robberies

70:17

thrown in here and there right yeah we

70:20

quite liked Asian I mean Persian rugs

70:23

yes so it was a Persian rug robbery came

70:26

in they're an antiques also we quite

70:27

late because we were basically we were

70:29

furnishing an apartment Oh free lost not

70:34

not that long it was more about months I

70:39

guess eventually what happened is if we

70:41

got too excited and we started trying to

70:43

form the Wild Bunch right by recruiting

70:46

guys in and of course the word spreads

70:49

and one fateful day I'm in the apartment

70:52

there's a knock on the door and the

70:56

firemen say there's a gas leak

70:59

so I look out at the firemen and I think

71:02

oh yeah so I go back and then I got an

71:06

ar-15 so I get the ar-15 and again this

71:10

is another moment of truth do I just

71:12

start though I let him have it through

71:14

the door and try and shoot my way

71:16

through or do I try and sneak away so I

71:20

opted for the civilized Joyce I go

71:23

outside and then I can hear the firemen

71:25

coming up the back exit and I try to

71:27

bluff my way past them saying oh there's

71:29

a gas leaks you know we got to get out

71:31

of here

71:32

but of course they got my picture so it

71:35

turned out the FBI had had taken over

71:37

the Nob Hill fire station taken the

71:41

uniforms of the firemen told the firemen

71:44

to stand down not inform the San

71:47

Francisco police because they didn't

71:49

trust him and so Wow where did you end

71:54

up back then well that's straight back

71:56

to San Quentin that's not did that then

71:59

make it so that your probation would be

72:03

fucked up well I wasn't sure it was no

72:05

probation I mean we're all sorry parole

72:08

well it wasn't a parole I'd escaped so

72:10

ok my sentence just continued the thing

72:13

we did not did in that time for you

72:15

sentence that's what's good well the

72:16

thing was there's a reality in in in

72:22

certainly in California at that time

72:24

there were literally tens of thousands

72:28

of criminal

72:29

case is coming up every week yeah so

72:32

every jurisdiction was just avalanched

72:36

inundated with cases just endless cases

72:40

and so how do you manage this each one

72:42

costs money and the county has to pay so

72:46

for example I escaped from Shasta County

72:49

for that forestry camp so I had to go

72:50

all the way back to Shasta County to

72:52

face trial well if I asked for a jury

72:56

trial even though it was a assured cinch

73:00

conviction they'd have had to come up

73:02

with tens of thousands of dollars to put

73:05

the whole process together but if I say

73:10

well I just plead guilty I'm making it

73:14

easier for them and the quid quo pro is

73:16

they don't add any extra time and so

73:18

they were happy with that

73:20

so I escaped and basically there was

73:25

there was not a day added to my sentence

73:27

wow he got so lucky you know I was only

73:29

you would've got like five to ten out to

73:30

done probably so how long have you got

73:35

left to serve now on that sentence well

73:38

I mean I'd have probably had to do

73:43

another well because it was originally a

73:45

five to life I would have probably had

73:47

to do the five and that's about what I

73:51

ended up doing as your States has gone

73:53

up on the odd now because not only have

73:55

you done shootouts with the police

73:56

you've also escaped well know that that

73:58

escape isn't counted for anything cause

74:00

it's just a forest camp walk away a lot

74:03

of those happen it's I say it's not

74:05

we're not talking Escape from Alcatraz

74:09

was it an easy ride the rest of your

74:12

sentence all did things no well it was

74:14

different because now now I was one of

74:18

the players like it wasn't like it was

74:21

when I first went in I wasn't I knew

74:24

that I knew the system and I knew some

74:25

people so when I walked out on the on

74:28

the Vacaville yard that time I remember

74:30

clearly there was guy called Doug Orr

74:33

who was one of the inner circle of

74:36

assassins for the Hells Angels and it

74:38

was my cry me

74:41

and two got one guy from my County and

74:43

another guy and two other hangers-on

74:45

we'd sort of now we had the mana if do

74:50

you know that word mana you got the

74:52

respect yes and so you know isn't the h8

74:58

dude having problem because you wrote

74:59

the hate drugs no because the Hells

75:02

Angels are a very tight the organised

75:06

bike club but there's very few of them

75:09

in prison they have good lawyers

75:10

yeah and generally speaking if the

75:13

lawyers aren't good enough the witnesses

75:15

have a tendency to disappear or keep

75:17

quiet yeah so not really know many of

75:21

them go to jail and go to prison you

75:24

have to be pretty extreme because they

75:26

have they can hire any lawyer in

75:28

California I mean they have deep pockets

75:30

mm-hmm

75:32

so actually they're not represented on

75:34

the yard yeah much at all that's that's

75:35

that's the same in Arizona yeah babies

75:38

have got the power yeah all right so

75:41

you're out there and these guys they're

75:43

owned by Vacaville Watts right so now

75:45

now when we go to Vacaville we know

75:47

we're just there just because on paper

75:51

they have to put us there for a month or

75:53

something then they send us up back to

75:55

Quentin so it's off to Quentin and there

75:57

we go and yeah you know here I thought I

76:02

was cool being Sierra Conservation

76:04

Center but Quentin's a whole different

76:06

world I mean it's the it's basically the

76:09

Colosseum the Roman Colosseum and yeah

76:12

you you're in a different reality there

76:15

in what way well as I said the rate of

76:18

violence you know cutting in front of a

76:23

convict in in the canteen line that's

76:25

grounds to get stabbed not paying back

76:28

five five five packs of cigarettes

76:30

that's that's a stabbing now in Marin

76:34

County they have at that time they had

76:37

one of the best stab surgery units in

76:39

the United States because it's so much

76:41

practice so guys would be stabbed 5 6 10

76:45

12 times and unless it went through

76:47

their brain or through their heart they

76:48

could put them back together but the

76:52

sheer extent of it I mean

76:54

I was in San Quentin for two weeks when

76:57

I came out of my cell and we had I was

76:59

on the fifth tier now in San Quentin

77:03

I don't you must seen the movies but

77:05

it's a long drop down to a concrete

77:07

floor and there's no netting not only is

77:10

there no netting there's no like mesh on

77:13

the thing there's just three pipe

77:15

railing so I come out and I'm walking

77:19

down the tear and these two guys are

77:22

trying to throw this kid off the deer

77:23

and they've got him half off the tear

77:28

and every convict black Chicano white

77:33

were just gently stepping around these

77:36

two guys trying to throw this kid off

77:38

the tear do you know what the kid had

77:40

done the kid had been in county jail

77:43

with them and he came to San Quentin and

77:47

he had a TV set and they asked him if

77:50

they could borrow the TV set to watch

77:52

them

77:52

the Niners game so he lent them his TV

77:56

set because of course you know he wants

77:57

to be in with them so as soon as the

78:01

game was over they sold the game to the

78:04

Mexicans they sold the TV to the

78:05

Mexicans for $20 you know Kappa stuff

78:09

and he came back the next morning and

78:14

asked them for his TV as soon as he

78:18

asked him for the TV they just grabbed

78:19

and started throwing him off the tear so

78:22

as we walk past and of course we can't

78:24

look at this because that's dry

78:25

snitching there's a guard reading a

78:28

comic book somewhere at the corner but

78:29

he doesn't see it and this guy doesn't

78:31

scream this is thing that surprised me

78:33

he didn't scream

78:34

screaming's DRI said well he's just

78:36

desperately holding on and it's one legs

78:39

over and you scratches up on top of the

78:41

bar and these guys are trying and he's

78:42

desperately holding and we just walk

78:44

past that like it wasn't even there and

78:46

we don't have to breakfast now the

78:50

guards you know they must let up because

78:53

they couldn't get him over right away

78:54

and so we knew there was going to be

78:56

round two at some point and at lunchtime

78:59

they caught him in the rotunda going to

79:01

lunch and they piped him but the guard

79:02

saw it and so they were arrested

79:06

that's that was the kind of thing that

79:08

was going to pipe them fatally no I

79:11

don't think so I don't remember really

79:13

but what I'm saying is just that there

79:17

was no every mistake you make you pay in

79:21

blood there was no you you couldn't push

79:25

somebody or you couldn't even walk into

79:27

somebody's cell usually like without

79:30

permission that was a violation and

79:32

these guys were doing all day their life

79:35

without possibility of parole and there

79:38

were knives everywhere in San Quentin I

79:40

mean there was a metal shop where guys

79:42

made knives is there as they're there

79:45

they're sort of in a scam it was before

79:49

the days of all these you know high-tech

79:51

sensors and all the rest of it what was

79:53

all the metal coming from the metal shop

79:56

the metal shop yeah they used to make

79:58

things out of metal California made the

80:00

prisoners made tables and chairs all

80:02

that hi-c

80:03

all the furniture for the prisons and

80:05

state offices was made in prison

80:07

did you make any more mistakes well I

80:11

mean I made the what mistakes did I make

80:17

I well here's Pierce I got involved in

80:20

business when my friend when my friend

80:22

came I told you I was working as an

80:24

education clerk and I was sitting there

80:27

and there was a gas stetner machine and

80:30

it was about 300 reams of colored paper

80:33

and it was my desk in a typewriter

80:36

and that was my working job now I

80:40

thought to myself this isn't any good I

80:42

got to do something more exciting than

80:43

this so a new guard came in and this guy

80:48

was interesting he wasn't the usual

80:52

guard he was a risky he'd come over and

80:56

he joined the American army to get

80:58

citizenship quickly but he didn't see us

81:02

as convicts he sort of saw us as just

81:05

enlisted men in the same army and he was

81:10

an officer and we were enlisted and

81:15

I was amazed at this guy because he

81:17

almost all the guards have internalized

81:19

the scumbag guard you know relationship

81:23

so but this guy hadn't and so I said

81:28

well can you bring me in a TV Guide

81:30

because in those days everybody had a TV

81:32

but by the time they searched if you had

81:36

a subscription to TV Guide by the time I

81:38

searched it and you actually got it in

81:40

the mail they made sure that it was

81:41

Thursday so they're only two or three

81:44

days left on the guide by the time you

81:45

got it so there's no point so I said to

81:48

him can you bring me a TV Guide Monday

81:51

morning and he said what what do you

81:54

mean I said well you know I mean the TV

81:55

Guide helps guys watch TV it's like you

81:58

know he says okay and so he brings me a

82:02

TV game so I go to work I type up a

82:08

Vista stetner so I got you know the the

82:11

the thing to put in there get stetner of

82:14

the TV Guide I run off whatever it was

82:17

500 copies I put the whole thing

82:19

together and I had it done by the

82:23

evening Monday evening then I decided I

82:25

have to go try and sell these things but

82:28

of course what are you gonna do who you

82:29

gonna sell them to just white people

82:31

well that I couldn't see that working so

82:35

I took the chance I decided why I'm just

82:36

gonna walk across the tribal lines here

82:39

so I went down the tear to every cell

82:41

and I come to the black guy and he says

82:44

fuck off white boy and I said TV Guide

82:48

that's half a duck in a week take it for

82:51

free I'll be back next week just cool in

82:53

neutral and I got told to fuck myself

82:55

about six seven times but a lot of guys

82:58

just took him I handed him out free well

83:02

after that I had myself a business I was

83:06

getting fifty cents for every guide and

83:07

the East Bloc Bayside I was selling 200

83:10

a day or I mean a week because they

83:13

recovered a week and as soon as I did

83:15

that I had guys from each block run to

83:18

me and say can I be a distributor and

83:19

I'd say yes half the money you don't pay

83:22

me you don't get any more guides and

83:24

pretty soon it was just hundreds of

83:25

dollars coming in every week and the

83:28

guards knew this was happening but for

83:30

the Gertz this was this was positive

83:34

because people watching TV is how the

83:38

guards want you to do your time

83:40

babysitter you you just fall into this

83:43

endless zone and a decade past it's 20

83:45

years pass if you if every kind of

83:48

except on cinema spend the rest of my

83:50

life in prison and and they they

83:53

internalize that reality then why not

83:56

take all the guards hostage why not a

83:59

hundred guys run and try and climb over

84:00

the fence and maybe 20 get away why not

84:04

but if you're all watching TV and

84:06

waiting for your next movie and you know

84:08

when is Kim Kardashian gonna be on the

84:10

show and so this TV guy business

84:15

suddenly almost like magic a tip started

84:20

to coalesce around us and it was kind of

84:22

like the non involved the non gang

84:25

member

84:26

slightly more intelligent guys and soon

84:31

we had like 10 15 guys and we knew what

84:33

was going on and we branched into

84:34

different businesses at Quentin

84:36

various kinds you know run a book like

84:42

tear sales you know you buy a cola for

84:44

25 cents lukewarm at the store but we

84:48

sell it to you for 50 cents but it's ice

84:50

cold right out of the bucket you know

84:53

then the Mexicans the Chicanos had the

84:55

tortilla business they stole all the

84:57

meat out of the kitchens I mean each

85:00

group had their own books up to blacks

85:02

they I don't know they just didn't seem

85:06

to be able to keep it together and

85:07

someone dope I suppose but the more

85:11

legal hustles were she said this was a

85:14

mistake that you made though this is

85:16

gonna end about it well it's not gonna

85:18

end bad because it was a mistake in a

85:20

sense that I I went across tribal lines

85:22

I mean for example some of the things

85:25

you described that you did in Arizona

85:28

would have got you

85:29

chased in a PC or stabbed for sure

85:31

Quentin you couldn't hang out with black

85:33

guys on the yard that just wouldn't go I

85:36

got sold off working out of a Mexican

85:38

American guy early on the whites of all

85:40

I see know

85:41

it's working out with other aces and all

85:44

of you know so that was that was

85:47

stepping out but the thing is how to put

85:51

it I couldn't see myself as a victim in

85:56

jail I had to be I mean for me it was

86:00

like going to a different country and

86:02

it's a different culture and you get

86:04

used to the culture pretty soon you

86:06

start functioning in the culture and you

86:08

start trying to do things that's always

86:12

solid I never I never want to see myself

86:14

as a victim because I mean for me if you

86:17

if you see yourself that way you've

86:18

given up the fight already right

86:20

so as you got more savvy nobody tried to

86:23

stab you again well I mean the racial

86:25

thing happened that happened after I did

86:28

the TV Guide business and that was the

86:32

black royal family okay but the

86:34

interesting thing about that was tit for

86:36

tat

86:37

well it was it was a race thing they

86:38

didn't care who they stabbed in fact the

86:40

four white guys who get stabbed it was

86:42

me Greg an old man who I remember was

86:45

just laying on the floor staring at the

86:47

ceiling is this guy was plunging him he

86:49

didn't even try and fight back

86:50

and one other game but the way I got out

86:54

of North Block was very interesting my

86:58

crime partner went to the blacks on the

87:03

Bayside fifth tier and he asked him to

87:05

sign a petition for me to get out of

87:08

segregation now that had never been done

87:11

before the idea that the blacks would

87:13

sign a petition to get a white boy out

87:15

of segregation but of course what people

87:19

didn't know is that we were saw in this

87:21

black guy speed on the line it was one

87:24

of the businesses we were doing some she

87:27

had become a drug dealer well I didn't

87:29

handle that particular side of the

87:31

business but I was it was part of our

87:33

thing yeah so how long now before you

87:36

get out watch a year of release well

87:39

what happened was after I got you know I

87:42

got it didn't get stabbed

87:43

I got nicked so three bandages on me so

87:47

it was interesting when I went to the

87:48

showers when I go to a North Block all

87:51

the blacks were like I and me I am me

87:53

for all these stab wounds

87:54

were told by the by the bros that I'd

87:58

been inflicted on but in fact it was

87:59

three Nicks I had three bandages anyway

88:02

I think that bought me some what credit

88:09

with with the what the California

88:12

Department of Corrections in the sense

88:15

that I was a potential problem because

88:18

my mother was a sort of quite a

88:22

well-known professor at the University

88:24

and my father had a high-powered job

88:27

with the World Bank and the idea that

88:31

I'd been attacked in a racial attack I

88:33

think it gave me nobody I never found

88:36

this out and I don't know if that's true

88:38

but I think that I got the benefit of

88:41

the doubt for release on parole so I was

88:44

released on parole

88:45

why is your relationship with your

88:46

parents like at this point you going

88:48

back to the house no no I was I was they

88:50

they caught you and lit washed your

88:52

hands of me basically I'd shamed them

88:54

not only shame them but it's that I've

88:56

got my brother killed in their eyes oh

88:57

my god yeah so there was there was what

89:02

you think some of your aggressive

89:04

behavior that came about this the thing

89:07

with the police and the shootout and

89:09

your brother's death you think you you

89:10

you had like a rage and a turmoil and

89:13

the chaos just just going inside you

89:16

because of going through all this that

89:18

then came out you know you started to do

89:20

this these things that could potentially

89:22

end up with you dead

89:24

robbing drug dealers going up against

89:25

the Hells Angels working for the Mafia

89:26

do you think one fed into the other or

89:30

do you think you've just got a natural

89:32

there's something in you that you you

89:35

don't strike me like it's a big tough

89:37

guy but there's an aura about you of not

89:40

to be messed with like you've got a

89:42

serious energy that comes off you well

89:45

I believed it everybody has this spirit

89:50

and I think it's human instinct I mean

89:52

we we went from what a hundred thousand

89:55

years are living on the savanna with the

89:56

Lions I think it's in all of us and the

90:01

thing is it's in our civilized life you

90:05

don't get called upon unless you go

90:07

after war for example

90:08

but I was in the deep end and I had to

90:12

find that instinct and and and revel in

90:15

it if I didn't who knows what would have

90:20

ended up right yeah I certainly wouldn't

90:22

been happy with myself so in terms of

90:26

rage I would say no because I'm quite

90:29

cool-headed in fact in times of extreme

90:33

action by usually make the right move I

90:37

don't know why but it usually works out

90:39

that way and the reason I tell you this

90:41

is because in these shootouts people

90:43

each time someone's died and the same

90:46

thing happened to me has happened to

90:48

them but they went down and I didn't so

90:51

call it luck I don't know maybe it's

90:53

luck some instinct I don't know but I

90:57

wouldn't say it's rage I think I mean to

91:02

be honest I think guys in prison the

91:06

guys who come to prison come to prison

91:07

because they do things they like doing I

91:09

don't I don't look that in terms of

91:14

psychological what deep psychological

91:18

reasons I I have a feeling you do what

91:21

you want to do so I made I remember each

91:24

decision that I made and I made the

91:25

decisions and I put myself in the

91:28

situation and nobody forced me to in

91:32

fact it was a going against all the

91:34

common sense I learned you know in my

91:37

upbringing I mean I didn't have a bad

91:39

upbringing

91:40

I've got no no reason for to explain

91:43

that but I will say you gotta have some

91:48

excitement in your life and I certainly

91:51

got that in spades through this

91:53

experience where do you go now you've

91:57

been released well you're talking my

92:00

final release oh no we're just get out

92:02

of California Corrections

92:04

well consider the situation I got

92:10

released and about half of the guys who

92:15

were part of my tip had been released

92:17

too so

92:20

we just basically formed a gang the

92:23

criminal gang out on the street and went

92:26

to the next level so when I say the next

92:31

level I remember one time we were called

92:34

upon to you know some some Chinese

92:37

restaurant owner hadn't paid a debt and

92:40

people were afraid to do and then

92:42

because of the triad connection but we

92:44

out of San Quentin we weren't afraid of

92:46

anything so we went over and grabbed him

92:50

and you know convinced him to do do what

92:54

he should but the problem is of course

92:59

he the big the more what ripples in the

93:05

pond you cause the sooner comes on the

93:09

attention of the the higher levels of

93:12

law enforcement cell so that you have to

93:15

leave California Nahor eventually wrap

93:18

it rapidly what gave you a heads up that

93:22

something was going to go down you felt

93:23

and need some leave well I mean in my

93:28

particular instance I was driving down

93:29

the highway and there's this patrolman

93:33

pulled me over and you know I had a gun

93:37

in my bag you know I mean it was an

93:41

instant straight back to San Quentin

93:43

routine so I thought well I'm not up for

93:47

that so I escaped from him and decided

93:53

it was time to move to another country

93:56

and he chose Canada

93:59

hmmm how easy was it just to move to

94:02

Canada for you there was no problem at

94:04

all just got on the bus and crossed into

94:08

Canada you lone wolf in it now are you

94:10

crime he's coming over though well they

94:12

they decided it was time to of them

94:14

decided it was time that they might like

94:16

Canadian vacation too so and these are

94:19

the notorious ones I've read about in

94:21

certain articles okay something's gonna

94:25

get really heavy with these guys

94:27

well the action there actually was a

94:30

plan but it was kind of there was a gold

94:33

refinery

94:34

that I used that I knew of in the

94:37

Canadian mountains and so we thought we

94:39

might just just wander up there and see

94:42

what was what there was no nothing

94:44

particular dramatic about it but it was

94:47

you know but it never got to that and

94:50

the Canadians had been I guess they've

94:53

been informed so basically we stepped

94:58

into a trap

94:59

what was the trap exactly well the car

95:04

broke down and I took it to a garage to

95:07

be repaired

95:07

and when I went to pick it up as I was

95:13

talking to the garage owner he started

95:18

acting very strange and looking over his

95:20

looking over his shoulder at this door

95:22

and I've got bad vibes from him so I I

95:25

sort of backed up a bit and suddenly two

95:28

guys in plain clothes burst out of the

95:30

room and went to tackle me and I backed

95:35

away from them and my friend an American

95:38

guy was outside and he saw these guys

95:41

coming for me and well as far as he was

95:47

concerned I was being attacked so he

95:48

shot one of them through the leg told

95:50

the other not to move and they were

95:53

turned out to be undercover RCMP

95:56

officers anyway there were two more of

95:59

them and one other one came from behind

96:01

and shot him twice shot him as I said

96:05

before he went down but they'd clipped

96:07

his back of his tongue and so he was

96:11

bleeding heavily but unfortunately he

96:13

was on his back and so in the 30 40

96:17

minutes before an ambulance came he

96:19

drowned in his own blood so well how did

96:22

you manage to get out of the situation

96:23

well unfortunately the guy who shot him

96:27

then tried to shoot me so I had this

96:30

RCMP officer that I was sort of punching

96:33

in the face regularly and by this time

96:36

he was kind of punched drunk and so I I

96:38

tried I held him I wanted to hold him in

96:41

place so this other guy couldn't shoot

96:44

me and the other guy was sort of angling

96:47

for his shot

96:48

because of course you know their Bloods

96:50

up and they've already clipped one guy

96:52

and fortunately this the last policeman

96:57

came out who hadn't seen all this drama

96:59

and he ran over and smashed me in the

97:02

face with his pistol and instead of

97:04

being shot I just had my nose broken so

97:06

that ended it so you got arrested though

97:10

well now what you charge it the same as

97:12

your first case well know that the

97:14

Canadians don't like shooting policemen

97:18

so as your problem I think you have the

97:19

same rule and in UK if I shoot you in

97:22

the leg that might be assault with a

97:26

deadly weapon for aggravated what's that

97:29

don't know exactly but if I shoot a

97:32

policeman in the leg that's attempted

97:34

murder

97:34

so because it's a policeman they always

97:37

lift up the seriousness one level so was

97:41

a charge of attempted murder so you're

97:44

in a room and jail in Canada what was

97:47

that like well it was I you know that

97:53

this the same sort of what dynamics hold

97:57

true I mean encounter the good part of

97:59

course is that most people are white so

98:01

you don't have so much of the racial

98:03

stuff but unfortunately I I had one of

98:06

these racial experiences almost like two

98:09

hours since I was put in the hole in the

98:11

jail because I get let on this tear and

98:14

as I walked into the tear I noticed that

98:18

the first two cells had two Indians in

98:21

them and the third cell had an Indian

98:23

and he was gun in me off as I came in

98:25

looking evilly at me and I had bad

98:29

feeling about this but I didn't know him

98:31

so I ignored him I went to myself and

98:34

when I went to make my bed I lifted it

98:38

up and it was a big pool of blood under

98:40

the mattress and I'm in there and all of

98:46

a sudden this white kid comes running

98:48

into the cell and he says they're gonna

98:50

get me next they're gonna get me next I

98:52

said what what are you talking about he

98:54

said the Indian see they broke that

98:57

guy's arm and they fucked him up and

98:59

that's his blood and they're gonna get

99:00

me next I said

99:01

he said well they made me play cards

99:04

with him and and I lost and they said I

99:06

have to pay them carton of cigarettes or

99:08

my visitor has to bring give him the

99:11

money or whatever it was and so two offs

99:15

coming into this cell there's already

99:17

this drabness happening and I'm thinking

99:19

to myself oh well I'm gonna have to

99:21

school this boy and so he's he's not a

99:24

Caucasian anymore he becomes a good

99:27

white boy so I said to him look I said

99:31

there's only one way out of this you

99:32

guys show some heart so you just you

99:38

just run into that guy's cell and give

99:40

him your best shot instead of mossad as

99:42

you can but when you run out run right

99:45

cuz I was like back this way on the

99:48

left-hand side and he says okay I said

99:51

but he's looking a bit nervous I said I

99:53

said seriously I said if you don't do

99:54

this I'm not gonna help you you're on

99:56

your own

99:58

so I come out and I'm looking at the

100:02

that there's a TV behind over the screen

100:05

and then there's a TV and there's

100:06

encounted everybody watches hockey games

100:08

then I'm not the hockey but it was the

100:11

only thing that was on so I'm pretending

100:13

to look at the hockey game and this kid

100:15

doesn't hit the guy he walks in with his

100:16

coffee hot coffee and throws at the

100:18

guy's face and this Indians big he's

100:20

like 6 to about 190 pounds and he just

100:24

roars he comes barreling out of the cell

100:26

after this guy and his kids only you

100:28

know whatever it is five six a little

100:30

game anyway meaning comes out of the

100:33

cell i hook him around the neck kick out

100:34

his legs he goes on the ground stomp on

100:38

his jaw a couple of times he starts

100:39

screaming as soon as he starts screaming

100:41

the guards come but the kids suddenly

100:43

recovers his balls and he comes running

100:45

in to put the boots on this guy so I

100:48

just go back into myself sit down and

100:50

the kids putting their boats to him with

100:52

preffered there's the acid and the

100:54

guards see it and they take them both

100:55

away and the kids he's so happy are you

101:03

trained in martial arts not really but

101:06

you know there's there's different moves

101:08

you can make I mean basically I'll tell

101:11

you a story

101:12

and this is

101:12

San Quentin story one of these guys was

101:16

released on the determinant sentencing

101:18

so there was no he just was released one

101:21

day he's on the mainline st. Quentin

101:23

other day he walks out onto the street

101:25

in San Francisco now he's a hardcore

101:27

racist and he's there's no halfway house

101:30

no probe parole no nothing there he is

101:34

and he walks down the street and he sees

101:38

this beautiful white girl long blonde

101:41

hair walking with a black guy and he

101:45

walks over and he says you fucking

101:47

nigger and well you know I mean oh the

101:52

black guy though is cool he looks at him

101:54

and he says I'm rated number three and

101:56

Taekwondo no man was it Taekwondo I

101:59

don't remember now in California which

102:02

in California is pretty significant

102:04

before he can even it finish the

102:07

sentence that guy just puts blade right

102:08

in his heart al because it doesn't

102:13

matter how much martial arts you know if

102:15

you live in a middle-class society

102:17

you're not jungle instinct hot yeah if

102:21

you're on the San Quentin mainline your

102:23

instincts are like wild animal instincts

102:25

yeah you see each movement you see who's

102:28

doing what what's she doing how is he

102:29

standing like this guy standing here

102:31

he's not threatening me it's okay you're

102:33

sitting in the chair you're looking

102:35

around what's the weapon what is it

102:37

and that guy killed him one shot to the

102:40

heart before the Taekwondo guy gave me

102:43

finished his warning right so the things

102:50

calm down in the jail in Canada now or

102:52

is it keen well no I

102:54

unfortunately I went to the maximum and

102:57

it's called Kent maximum and it was like

103:04

it was like San Quentin except there

103:07

were only a hundred and fifty guys this

103:08

is this is prior to sentencing no no

103:11

this is this is after sentencing okay so

103:13

how long were you on remand for you're

103:14

sentenced was about four months I think

103:17

four months and what is your new

103:18

sentence well I've got a one interesting

103:20

tale to tell you I grew up

103:24

because this gunfight happened way off

103:27

in the mountains in Canada go up to that

103:29

little town to the county court and

103:32

there's my trial anyway I am leg

103:37

shackled handcuffed and I get put into

103:40

the waiting room you know

103:44

beside the courtroom and the police are

103:46

standing outside and guess who is

103:48

sitting beside me on the bench the big

103:51

Indian and he doesn't have any handcuffs

103:54

or leg shackles oh he's sitting there

103:58

right beside me and I'm handcuffed and

104:00

leg shackled and I thought to myself oh

104:03

I'm in for a beating here this boy he

104:05

knows it's me and he's gonna give it to

104:07

me for sure he's got nothing to lose

104:08

right and I I just don't know what I'm

104:13

gonna do because they've they've

104:15

shackled me to a belt like hand shackled

104:19

to a belt plus leg shackled so the best

104:21

I could do would be to roll up in a ball

104:23

I suppose and just kind of wiggle around

104:26

on the floor and he looks at me and the

104:30

biggest cheese eating grin he says I got

104:32

some Hank books you want to read some

104:34

Hank books and he was as friendly as pie

104:38

he was offering me cigarettes and and I

104:42

thought to myself this is really strange

104:44

I couldn't figure it out and then I

104:46

realized we were taking into court and

104:49

he was charged with raping a minor some

104:53

13 year-old girl and he realized that I

104:58

was in the courtroom with your witness I

105:01

was a witness to what he really was in

105:02

for and so his like ultra macho bullying

105:09

and fucking up these white guys was

105:11

obviously a play to make himself look

105:13

toughened but now I had the goods on him

105:18

yep and he was trying to trying so hard

105:22

to be nice right anyway I go back to the

105:25

remand Center and the same kid was there

105:27

and I said you'll be interested in this

105:29

and I told him the tale and boy the

105:34

posse was out after this guy after that

105:38

cousin Karen of course they have the

105:40

same hatred of child molesters and

105:43

suchlike

105:44

I think it's universal all right so what

105:47

was your sentence then a 10-year

105:49

sentence and how much you have to serve

105:51

on that in Canada well yeah the

105:55

mandatory release is 2/3 they can

105:58

however you go in front of the parole

106:00

board after on that about three years

106:02

and three months so one-third you go in

106:04

front of the parole board I did the full

106:06

mandatory so and what's present did you

106:09

end up at well I was in Kent to begin

106:12

with and Kent was the maximum and in

106:17

Canada in and the West Coast in British

106:20

Columbia they have a different

106:21

demography they don't have the racial

106:24

problem because everybody's most

106:25

everybody's white some Indians but most

106:28

everybody's White's the problem in

106:30

Canada is in the West Coast there's just

106:33

an amazing number of drug addicts so the

106:36

prison is filled with drug addicts now

106:40

drug addicts make about the worst

106:42

prisoners in the world because they

106:45

combine being sleazy with being weak

106:49

with ratting people out easily with

106:53

being selfish and greedy and I mean they

106:57

don't they haven't taken on the convict

106:59

ethos put it that way

107:01

so it I felt like I had really fallen

107:07

backwards in terms of the people you

107:11

were sharing your space with to be

107:15

honest I'd rather be around bank robbers

107:17

and you know people like that then drug

107:20

addicts was it much less violent than

107:22

California though well interestingly

107:24

enough it was pretty violent wasn't

107:27

because they in Canada it's Canada

107:31

doesn't have the gun crime that America

107:34

has even though they had the same number

107:36

I mean if guns held by people but

107:40

does have a pretty violent subculture so

107:43

Canadians play ice hockey and ice hockey

107:46

is basically assault with bodily harm as

107:52

a sport

107:52

I don't know if you've ever watched it

107:56

yeah Canadian ice hockey is and so there

108:03

was some there was also another level is

108:05

that the worst criminals from Quebec

108:07

would be sent to the west coast

108:10

now Quebec has a serious underworld

108:14

culture we're talking anything that New

108:18

York has Chicago has Montreal has the

108:22

same level of you know mob

108:24

assassinations and you know organized

108:27

crime and but Quebec is particularly

108:29

famous for high powered robbery armored

108:32

car robberies with machine guns and all

108:36

that kind of stuff

108:37

and so those kind of guys they didn't

108:39

want them in Quebec so in California we

108:43

called it bus therapy so you move

108:46

somebody away from where they're

108:48

familiar so they wouldn't in Canada

108:50

they'd move people from Quebec all the

108:51

way out to the west coast where they

108:53

knew nobody

108:53

and that way they hope to you know take

108:57

him away from their roots and from their

108:58

support but those boys were dangerous

109:01

and so I know an English guy actually a

109:05

dope addict dope fiend and he had just

109:10

he'd made some move on one of these

109:13

Quebec quiet kids he cheated him out of

109:15

something like ID he he got cuffs of

109:18

drugs from him and then didn't pay him

109:20

and the Quebec well he just stabbed him

109:24

right away

109:25

I mean as soon as he didn't pay didn't

109:27

have the money pulled and I found

109:28

stabbed and thus English guy was just

109:30

standing there almost died and he was

109:32

just stunned he stabbed me he stabbed me

109:34

and you can understand because for him

109:37

that kind of move in the Vancouver dope

109:39

dope world was just run-of-the-mill

109:42

everyday activity is stiff other addicts

109:44

and they stiff you and steal each

109:46

other's stashes and whatever but for

109:49

those guys they played by San Quentin

109:52

rules

109:52

so it was a dangerous place I mean this

109:57

American guy had like me escaped and

110:00

jumped the border got in a shootout with

110:03

the police there and Saanich but

110:06

unfortunately he he could only you had a

110:08

410 shotgun with birdshot so he shot the

110:11

policeman with birdshot but all that did

110:14

is make him angry so when they had him

110:17

cuffed they had him on the ground and

110:20

the policeman's partner came up put his

110:22

pistol to his head and pulled the

110:23

trigger

110:24

now this American luckily when the gun

110:26

went to his head he shifted his head by

110:29

45 degrees and it just blew out the

110:33

skull and I orbit and he lost his eye

110:35

but he didn't die and they they put his

110:39

head back together but it was like a

110:41

teacup that had been glued you know it

110:44

pins and things and he couldn't take a

110:47

shot to the head he was and so they put

110:50

him in the maximum and unfortunately for

110:55

this guy he had a disconnect in his head

110:57

between who he was now and who he had

111:00

been he had been I hope to die a

111:03

gangster or an escaped convict and all

111:05

the rest but now he was essentially a

111:08

cripple and that disconnect caused what

111:14

came next the dope addicts the dope

111:17

fiends were watching him and they knew

111:19

he had some smoke so they robbed his

111:22

stash

111:23

and he found they robbed his stash and

111:25

so he went and put if you can believe

111:28

this he put a sign on the bulletin board

111:31

saying I know who did it and you'll get

111:33

yours that's one thing you do in the

111:38

joint is you never threaten anybody

111:40

he either do it or keep way but what you

111:43

don't do is broadcast that you're gonna

111:45

do it so he went and did this and so the

111:52

dope fiends

111:53

they got they've they know they knew

111:55

this guy who was a great psycho this guy

111:58

had beaten an old woman to death because

112:01

she complained about his definite Def

112:04

Leppard music or

112:05

something like that anyway he was in

112:08

there and all he did was just point him

112:10

in this guy's direction and he ran in

112:13

with a weight bar and he broke the guy's

112:16

arms and broke his legs and then whacked

112:19

him in a skull shattered his skull again

112:24

so I wouldn't say that prison was

112:27

particularly peaceful did anyone try and

112:30

test you well again

112:33

I was looking like I looked in that

112:36

picture that was taken from the Canadian

112:38

pen yep and gun fights with the police

112:43

you know the newspapers I sort of had my

112:46

mana intact but of course they're

112:50

watching and they tried to a couple of

112:56

times they tried to trick me into stuff

112:57

for example one time they saw that I was

113:02

running I used to run a lot we're on the

113:05

track my way partner night and so one of

113:11

these guys sent a quip one of these

113:13

québécois fellows up to me and he said

113:14

you got a lot of money on your books

113:16

because at this time unfortunately the

113:20

m8 committee members had access to how

113:23

much money everybody had on their books

113:24

and they saw I had a job sort of

113:28

teaching remedial students with this

113:30

prison educational program and they paid

113:32

me real mind they paid me like $1,000 a

113:36

term Wow

113:37

which for prisoners was huge and he says

113:40

you're the richest inmate in the joint

113:45

so they these guys thought how they're

113:48

gonna get me they saw I was a runner so

113:51

they sent this guy to me and they said

113:52

there's some guys wanna want to make a

113:55

bet want to make some bets I said what

113:57

do they want to make bets then he says

113:58

well he says I bet they can beat you

114:01

running he says and they're liable to

114:05

put up money I mean real money on this

114:08

and I said well how much money he says

114:12

well I don't know how much would you be

114:14

willing to go for and so we talked some

114:17

more and the deal

114:19

they've got this one one tall live

114:21

sporty Indian and then this half black

114:24

guy used like an antelope I mean he's

114:27

he's naturally athletic but the thing is

114:30

I'd never seen him run before so I

114:32

didn't know if they can go the distance

114:34

or if they were really fast and he'd

114:36

smoked me or what would happen so I

114:38

decided to try and hedge my bets and I

114:41

said well can I pick out two other guys

114:43

from my team Cena so you got two on that

114:45

think and coming up three on our team

114:47

they said sure because they didn't think

114:50

anyone else could run so they come down

114:56

to it and they say okay we're gonna have

114:57

a race how much money are we putting on

114:59

it and I say to this Frenchman they say

115:01

cuz I'm thinking to myself these guys

115:03

are trying to set me up but I thought to

115:05

myself if you're gonna ambush me I'm

115:07

gonna ambush you so I said so the

115:10

Frenchman said take every bit take every

115:12

carton they want to put up whatever it

115:14

is they want to bet will cover it and he

115:17

was as happy as could be because this

115:19

was real activity right I mean the joint

115:21

it's pretty slowly every day today but

115:24

now they got something they're gonna

115:26

have a real race with real money and

115:28

these people have real and I'm gonna

115:32

call it antagonism but there was this

115:34

sort of dope fiends from Vancouver on

115:36

this side and there were some big like

115:39

kingpins from Vancouver guys who'd like

115:41

arranged the dope and there and there

115:43

they but they took the whole the whole

115:45

group so they had a whole group they're

115:47

actually much like the group you you had

115:49

right so the day for the day for the

115:55

race came and everybody's out you know

115:58

they're on the bleachers people are

115:59

making side bets all of a sudden time is

116:02

real it's not you're in the prison

116:04

you're almost at the race track or

116:05

something right and the race starts and

116:08

these guys take off and this black guy

116:12

he he was like watching an antelope run

116:15

he was just smooth it's just like silk

116:17

and when I run I go red in the face and

116:20

I'm chugging away right but it's a mile

116:22

run and these guys just take off because

116:24

of course they want to look good in

116:26

front of their mates right so away they

116:28

go and I'm thinking to myself you boys

116:30

this is a mile run

116:31

do you run joke no I'm not that good

116:35

well a mile runs not like ten kilometers

116:38

ten kilometers you go ahead and speed

116:39

and a mile run is a race anyway so the

116:44

race runs and I come third and my other

116:47

two guys come first and second and both

116:49

these guys don't finish the race

116:51

so we smoked him and got all the money

116:53

they paid up they'd well it they paid up

116:55

because this the sleazy dope fiends

116:58

wouldn't have paid but the money

117:00

actually came from the the kingpins for

117:03

them it was just entertainment chump

117:06

change yeah it's some change to just you

117:08

know be entertained in an afternoon

117:09

there's a bit of buzz everybody has a

117:11

good time so he said there was a few

117:16

times they tried to trick you what else

117:17

did they well I used to run a book like

117:20

I'm betting because the big problem in

117:22

in the joint is you know debts like you

117:28

might want to bet again but do you

117:31

really have a carton of cigarettes in

117:32

your pocket to put up on the debt on the

117:34

bed but if you have somebody who'll take

117:38

the beds and lay off the beds who you

117:41

trust to pay up that it makes it

117:43

possible and I like to you know in the

117:46

joint you're always looking for

117:47

something to do I mean it's going to be

117:49

interesting and so betting on the games

117:51

was a bit of being outside it was like

117:54

you know the guys related to it so I

117:57

used to take bets and fortunately I I

118:02

discovered something which of course bet

118:05

bookies probably already know and that's

118:07

that it once you what you want to do is

118:09

you want to catch a group of degenerate

118:13

gamblers I mean complete addicts who

118:17

can't help themselves but who have money

118:19

and fortunately for me there were two

118:23

Chinese drug drug drug importers and it

118:28

was a bent stockbroker and these guys

118:31

the bent stockbroker couldn't put for

118:34

the life of him if he bet one side of a

118:36

bet you knew they were gonna lose you

118:38

could just throw your inheritance on it

118:40

and so

118:44

these guys and so what happened of

118:48

course is that again this this group the

118:52

oil kingpins one you know they start

118:54

trying to overload me on one side to

118:57

catch me out now they're cooler than in

119:00

San Quentin st. Quentin the prison gang

119:02

might just come up on you with knives

119:04

these guys were they were pretty cool

119:06

they try and trick you into doing

119:07

something you're already doing but make

119:09

push you to go too far so fortunately I

119:15

was able to cuz I was because I had this

119:17

money I was able to fund it and so I

119:19

could I never never got caught so

119:21

outside of your entrepreneurial activity

119:23

what did you do to fill your time for

119:26

the rusty sentence in Canada well I was

119:28

really lucky because they had something

119:31

called the prison education system and

119:33

it was out of the University in British

119:37

Columbia the Simon Fraser and the

119:40

University of Victoria and they had a

119:42

group of how would you call them lefties

119:48

actually one of them was English

119:49

Socialist Workers Party used to work for

119:52

the BBC and this group they wanted to

119:56

they had an idea that teaching

120:00

humanities to prisoners might awaken an

120:04

awareness of the values of Western

120:07

culture and that people would make the

120:10

conscious choice not to be criminals and

120:13

so this ethos Tate they brought in

120:18

humanities courses literature and art

120:20

and history and psychology and

120:22

philosophy and the idea was to one get

120:27

prisoners to get university degrees so

120:29

they did you already have a degree no I

120:31

didn't I didn't finish my degree because

120:32

I went to prison what subject was that

120:34

you were doing I was doing Japanese

120:36

studies okay but of course the

120:38

university wasn't doing Japanese studies

120:40

so I took and anyway this is I died and

120:45

gone to heaven basically with this

120:46

because you know the usual books in

120:49

prison or dusters and just cheap you

120:52

know murder fiction and sci-fi and stuff

120:55

but these guys

120:57

were actually intelligent committed

120:59

people who were bringing in real books

121:02

and we were and I had I would have a

121:04

tutorial with with a full professor from

121:07

the University one on one for an hour I

121:10

mean just thinks that you'd never

121:12

conceive of like if you were paying

121:14

student now imagine you'd be lucky now

121:17

if you saw your professor for fifteen

121:19

minutes that you didn't just you know so

121:21

with this president education program I

121:24

got right into it and I finally I got my

121:27

degree and then I started teaching for

121:29

them in the prison to the other

121:31

prisoners different things mostly

121:33

remedial stuff and I got paid I you know

121:38

we started publishing a prison journal

121:40

and we got involved with outside

121:43

bringing outside groups in like students

121:44

from the University doing criminology

121:47

would come in and we need organized sort

121:49

of get-togethers between prisoners and

121:51

students so they could ask their

121:53

questions directly with no mediation

121:55

between you know books sort of teachers

121:57

and such like so it was it was really

122:01

good I mean I've got to give those guys

122:03

credit of course the program's

122:04

disappeared it was defunded when they

122:06

went back to the old punishment regime

122:08

but the prison education program from

122:11

the University of Victoria was excellent

122:14

so how did it feel to go from this high

122:16

adrenaline lifestyle then to be teaching

122:20

people prisoners third as president our

122:23

house wasn't even read alright and I was

122:26

assigned at one point to help them do

122:28

some stuff for the high school that the

122:30

GED I think it's called so to go from

122:33

this wild lifestyle and help helping

122:35

other people how did that feel well it

122:38

wasn't a hard transition because I my

122:40

mother was a university professor and I

122:42

grew up around University so I sort of

122:44

knew how to carry myself and I'd been a

122:47

student before I was busted and so in a

122:53

sense I got that stuff out of my system

122:56

well I think what do they call it when a

123:00

boy wants to turn into a man a rice of

123:03

passage

123:04

yeah well that was my rite of passage

123:06

going to San Quentin basically

123:09

baptism of fire yeah I knew who I was

123:11

after that and I was secure in myself

123:14

and that that means something and of

123:19

course you know that's 11 years span

123:22

inside but you can't look at what is

123:27

time wasted I mean it's time wasted

123:30

working at the Lloyds Bank for 11 years

123:33

you know punching the computer screen is

123:35

that I mean what else did I learn I

123:39

learned how to play badminton in prison

123:41

what about chess my tennis game improved

123:44

in Canada I must say has got some good

123:46

sports facilities engage playing chess

123:49

the guys just as checkers is their game

123:52

checkers ok prisoners in America Jesse's

123:55

a bit too cerebral for them we're

123:57

talking checkers did you play chess with

123:59

any money yeah yeah there was a

124:00

heavyweight chess players in Arizona and

124:02

definitely they schooled me I thought I

124:04

knew a thing or two because I wasn't a

124:05

chess club when I was a kid I went in

124:08

that got my ass whooped right away

124:09

outside my parents sending in chess book

124:12

so I could learn all these opening moves

124:14

and all that kind of stuff

124:16

these guys like they like gambling poker

124:18

of course I wouldn't sit down with

124:20

anybody because in in Canada for example

124:23

that bent stockbroker I was telling you

124:25

about he came in he brought $5,000 up

124:29

his ass

124:30

and he he I guess he wanted to buy

124:34

friends or something try and protect him

124:35

against the so he sat down with the

124:38

poker table

124:39

and there were six guys playing and of

124:42

course he lost his $5,000 like in about

124:44

three days yeah and what he didn't know

124:46

was that every single person was playing

124:48

it they all they're all playing together

124:51

he got hustled he got hustled you know

124:56

so I wouldn't play games with people

124:59

because like if you start playing chess

125:02

with somebody the next thing they want

125:03

to start betting cigarettes or and you

125:06

know the guy's gonna try and hustle you

125:08

yeah I never I never staked anything on

125:11

my games it was just sportsman's

125:12

pleasure well that's alright if you can

125:15

maintain it like that yeah so what year

125:19

did you get released in Canada well I

125:21

was deported

125:22

- ting and 1987

125:25

why were you deposits England that's

125:28

born here we're about annealing we born

125:30

Carlisle okay and how did you end up in

125:33

America my mother was a professor there

125:36

the parents were they both from Scotland

125:39

no no my mother my father's from

125:42

Lincolnshire Lincolnshire and your

125:44

mother she was Canadian Canadian and

125:47

then they were teaching and working out

125:49

of California I see they both got PhDs

125:52

at the University of California I see

125:54

okay so when you ended up deported to

125:57

the UK did you have anybody here well I

126:01

got some cousins I got some cousins but

126:03

of course you know you get your family

126:08

reputation is basically like sheep yeah

126:11

so what was your support structure what

126:13

year was they again sorry 1987 so 1987

126:16

we've got England it's like that's the

126:19

crash of 87 is the big rise of the

126:21

yuppies and all that kind of stuff

126:22

that's yeah is it and you're coming back

126:25

to the UK black sheep family members

126:28

probably don't want to support you so

126:30

what do you do

126:30

the dog the dog yeah and then the doll

126:33

give you Housing Benefit a place to live

126:36

and all flat what part of the UK were

126:39

you in south coast south coast and so

126:44

the Ibis got the door but I mean in

126:47

those days you could live on the door

126:49

and it was okay but there's no future to

126:53

it so I thought to myself I've got I've

126:56

got to take my education a bit a bit

126:58

further if I'm going to do anything and

127:00

because I mean I have to say I I

127:02

realised that I'd gone as close to the

127:05

edge of the abyss as you could

127:08

now the guys remember I told you there

127:11

were guys in my tip well dead dead life

127:16

without possibility of parole life but

127:20

another life on top of that so that was

127:24

the option so you know thinking look at

127:27

them what happens of those guys I'm

127:28

gonna make a go of the straight and

127:30

narrow and try and rebuild my life and

127:31

not go back - exactly I'd completely

127:33

turned back on crime because it

127:35

no I mean you know California's three

127:38

strikes and you're out

127:39

well I've had my I had my three strikes

127:41

and you know the next time I just be

127:44

written off as a habitual criminal so

127:46

how old are you in 1987 1987 I would

127:50

have been last 33 you strike me as you

127:55

know you've got these entrepreneurial

127:56

skills obviously is that what you done

127:59

did did you just kind of like do your

128:01

own business well if it eventually ended

128:03

up in business but yeah I'll take my

128:09

hand at whatever is coming up if there's

128:11

some if there's an opportunity I mean if

128:13

my theory is if you can do business in

128:15

San Quentin even do business anyway

128:17

[Laughter]

128:20

inspirational to prisoners worldwide

128:23

Jesus so my therapist said to me showing

128:28

lot the skills you've cultivated in here

128:31

to deal with these thugs he's gonna last

128:33

you for the rest of your life so it's

128:36

not what you're saying here

128:37

well for example I have a property it's

128:42

an old industrial property and when I

128:45

bought it I had this tenant then he was

128:47

he's a junkyard dog he was one of these

128:51

fellas big guy bald head he's you know

128:55

he's involved in the dark side and all

128:57

kinds of stuff but he loved to

128:59

intimidate people so he would shout in

129:02

your face and bang the table and make

129:04

threats and he he threatened the fella I

129:07

bought the place from so badly but the

129:09

old guy sold it cheap just to get out of

129:11

there now I inherited this guy but it

129:16

was like watching him go through his

129:18

routine I'd seen it a hundred times

129:20

before I was just watching it was like

129:23

you know he was like watching the drama

129:25

on TV

129:26

each time he liked it cause he was smart

129:28

he wouldn't you know he'd come right to

129:30

the edge like one time he didn't pay the

129:32

rent for a while so I went to his house

129:35

late one night and banging on the door

129:36

it wasn't there but a 16 year old

129:38

daughter wasn't she said what do you

129:39

want I said I want my rent money she

129:41

said what do you mean I said your dad

129:44

he's not paying the rent he told me he

129:46

did I said well you do you go down

129:49

anyway so next time I come to the place

129:52

he just starts ranting and raving you

129:54

went to my house you talked to my

129:55

daughter you told her I didn't pay the

129:57

rent screaming and shouting and banging

129:58

the table and he throws a chair against

130:00

the wall

130:00

I'm just watching this guy of course I'm

130:03

you know I'm sitting myself so if he

130:05

like makes her move my direction I can

130:07

deal with him but you know you've gone

130:11

through all that you've heard you've

130:12

seen that routine worked out that's a

130:14

prisoner prisoner routine the guy

130:16

screams and shouts gets in your face and

130:19

you know you're meant to back down you

130:21

meant to be intimidate all in your

130:22

reaction so like that's and he you know

130:26

that was in fact that guy still has a

130:29

property next door so so how successful

130:33

of you become successful enough I mean

130:36

what is successful these days I don't

130:38

know I mean the money's inflated so

130:41

badly you call it the British peso now I

130:44

think when you go through these things

130:47

you learn that success is success is

130:50

manful really and you strike me as the

130:53

level-headed well if you if you feel

130:56

comfortable with yourself you've been

130:57

successful yeah if you're happy in your

130:59

own skin yeah that's the one wasn't it

131:02

that's the one yeah because you know

131:04

money doesn't really matter that much I

131:06

mean what difference does it make what

131:09

kind of car you drive basically they're

131:11

all the same text these days whether you

131:13

paid fifty thousand pounds for your car

131:14

or fifteen hundred and you know clothes

131:18

or what else I mean you want to wear

131:19

jewelry I mean life is the simpler

131:24

things are the ones that are the most

131:26

pleasurable yeah so join the small

131:30

things and that's one thing Prison

131:31

teaches you and that's one lesson that

131:34

you learn is that you can live in a

131:36

small space you can eat shitty food you

131:41

can you can put up with stuff in and so

131:43

when you run into what comes in later

131:45

you hear these people winching all the

131:47

time and you think come on you guys

131:50

you've never seen it you've never lived

131:52

it yeah so I'll tell you what's gonna

131:55

happen next on YouTube then people are

131:58

gonna be endlessly fascinated of your

132:00

story I'm predicting

132:01

it's gonna get a lot of views and people

132:05

gonna start to Google you and the trolls

132:08

and the skeptics the floodgate is going

132:11

to completely open because they're gonna

132:12

find these articles that describe you as

132:15

a James Bond a super villain with an IQ

132:17

of 160 they describe your partner

132:20

Hennessey as a serial killer murdered

132:26

multiple people but was given a pass

132:28

because if his drugs

132:30

oh that's Phillip Thompson oh that's

132:32

Thompson sorry sorry that's correct yeah

132:34

Thompson then they've got him described

132:37

as a serial killers it was doing okay

132:39

and you're trained in this Japanese

132:43

martial art that you just basically the

132:46

police when they confronted come up to

132:48

you you just cut right through them and

132:50

if that doesn't work you know you just

132:52

engage in shootouts immediately without

132:54

any hesitation and then there's also

132:56

they've got you pegged as the murderer

132:59

of actress Valerie McDonald which was a

133:06

brutal thing that happened there's

133:08

allegations that she was raped murdered

133:09

tortured all this stuff so these media

133:13

you know there was an article that came

133:16

out about me a few months after my

133:19

arrest and it was everything I did in

133:23

ten times more so I know other media

133:24

work that they want to get the clicks

133:26

they put all this stuff out there but I

133:29

guarantee that trolls are gonna latch

133:31

onto this they're gonna say you've got

133:32

this guy on your podcast he's a murderer

133:36

this Valerie Mike McDonald was raped and

133:40

all this stuff and blah blah blah

133:42

so you've never haven't been committed

133:43

of any sex offenses just let's just

133:45

let's just make this perfectly clear

133:47

never never convicted never charged

133:49

never even questioned yeah yeah and I

133:52

would never ever have anyone on my

133:54

podcast who was a chomo so let's squash

133:58

that one right away so what would you

134:00

like to say then about these hyped up

134:03

stories and these allegations of you

134:06

you've been involved in the murder of

134:08

Valerie McDonald the actress well it

134:11

started because we

134:14

got out on parole my job was assistant

134:19

hotel manager for this small residency

134:22

hotel and Valerie McDonald was one of

134:25

the tenants now a couple of people came

134:30

to me and complained about her and said

134:33

that she's a prostitute

134:36

considering the neighborhood I wasn't

134:38

surprised when I wasn't particularly

134:40

bothered one way or the other the key

134:42

pointers is she paying the rent well she

134:45

wasn't - nobody else were either they

134:46

were on rent strike which is the reason

134:50

we were drafted in - should we say solve

134:53

the rent strike problem so we went about

134:58

our business and the one we after about

135:00

two or three weeks the ones who wouldn't

135:02

pay were tossed out and the ones who did

135:06

pay stayed now she didn't pay and she

135:10

disappeared from the scene the next be

135:13

fast forward it turned out that not only

135:16

did she disappear from the scene she

135:17

disappeared completely and her parents

135:21

had turned out were politically

135:24

connected in Oregon and they had some

135:27

juice with the legislature and they came

135:30

down to try and find out what happened

135:32

to her and they hired a private

135:36

investigating company called Palladino

135:38

Palin Dena we think quite a famous one

135:42

now what Paul and Eno did was they had

135:48

this couple who had money who were

135:50

desperately what desperately wanted to

135:54

find out what happened to their daughter

135:55

and they took these people on the

135:59

magical you know miracle ride and they

136:03

would bring ex-convicts up who said they

136:06

know us and said that she was tortured

136:08

for days in this place and they this and

136:11

that and this and that and they think I

136:14

think they squeezed a couple hundred

136:15

thousand dollars out of this guidance

136:16

and of course to get that kind of money

136:20

the pie has got to continue to have a

136:24

new lead or a new and so some

136:27

he thief would say oh yeah I knew those

136:29

guys in Quentin I saw them outside and

136:31

yeah they said to me have you got some

136:33

cyanide or you know this kind of stuff

136:34

and of course that would open up a new

136:37

avenue from to race town and the long

136:41

and short of it was is that basically

136:45

she told them that we'd murdered this

136:46

girl now in support of this theory is

136:50

when I was arrested and they seized my

136:54

stuff and Hennessy stuff they found

136:56

Valerie's jacket and Valerie's voting

137:01

registration card and I think there was

137:05

a suggestion maybe a lock of her hair or

137:07

some hair in her head or something like

137:08

that and of course the circumstantial

137:13

evidence jump as well the only way you'd

137:15

have had that is if you'd abducted her

137:18

and killed her but of course what they

137:21

didn't mention was the fact that Michael

137:24

Hennessey who was also an assistant

137:25

manager of the hotel had cleaned out her

137:28

room and that's presumably where he

137:31

found the jacket and the voting

137:33

registration and it turned out that he'd

137:35

been writing love letters to her or

137:37

poetry or something and so he might have

137:40

had a thing with her now

137:43

she came from Oregon and apparently they

137:46

found her body somewhere in Washington

137:49

and the suggestion the story that

137:53

certainly her mother believes is that we

137:56

kidnapped her oh this parts a bit

137:59

confusing because they they suggest that

138:01

we kidnapped her in California and then

138:08

buried her in cement and then took her

138:11

where up to Washington to throw in the

138:14

river I you know I mean the problem is

138:20

of course for me is that on the web one

138:23

guy says something and another guy just

138:25

puts his block on top of that and pretty

138:28

soon you've got a Magic Castle

138:29

and as you described with the CIA and

138:33

you know what was it black ops running

138:37

in black ops tricking that drug you had

138:39

cocaine for arms you

138:41

weapons licenses and selling arms to the

138:43

Contras and all this stuff I mean it's

138:45

pretty when I read that stuff I I

138:48

thought it was interesting that wow

138:49

these guys are really up to something

138:50

then I realized they were actually

138:51

writing about me I mean I was just a

139:00

college student who did something very

139:03

stupid ended up in prison and I met

139:06

Phillip Thompson and basically all these

139:09

stories come from Phillip Thompson now

139:11

he's a pretty enigmatic character I

139:14

couldn't tell you what's true or not I I

139:16

never sat down on any CIA briefings

139:19

I don't remember President Reagan giving

139:22

me the okay that's smuggle guns so but

139:28

it's it's a classic lesson and what

139:30

happens on the internet when the net

139:32

sleuths get excited they're gonna get

139:35

excited over this I guarantee there's

139:37

gonna be all kinds of theories coming up

139:39

is there anything that I've missed out

139:41

or anything you would like to say any

139:42

any final stories or anything in

139:44

conclusion you'd like to say to the

139:46

viewers out there on YouTube well the

139:48

thing that that got me sort of coming

139:50

here and that I feel is real injustice

139:53

is the fact that in today's internet

139:56

world once your name is on the Internet

139:59

as a criminal or having committed a

140:01

criminal offense you have no chance to

140:03

put together a future not the chance I

140:06

had I had a chance because I got out

140:09

before the internet happened and I could

140:12

put my life together before the internet

140:15

was there just every single what you

140:20

know problem you get into is there for

140:22

everybody to read now how does a guy in

140:25

Britain for example who comes out of

140:26

prison how does he get a job except for

140:29

being a navigator construction site

140:31

maybe I mean there's one of these

140:33

advanced criminal checks made on

140:36

everybody you can't be a teacher you

140:38

can't work for the government you can't

140:40

be in the army you can't I mean how does

140:41

a person start a new life and that's the

140:44

part that seems deeply unfair to me yeah

140:48

it's a vicious cycle I work with I try

140:50

to call prisoners abroad of people at

140:52

you in your situation

140:54

times they come back to the UK and

140:56

they've got nothing they don't know

140:58

anybody do bring out the country for

140:59

years the families are overseas so

141:01

prisoners abroad will I've come up with

141:03

a place to live you know so they can

141:05

have a shower right away and get cleaned

141:06

up try and get them to job interviews

141:09

and stuff like that so there are some

141:10

companies in this country I think like

141:13

Simpsons and stuff like that

141:15

make extra efforts to try and hire

141:18

people with criminal records but you're

141:20

right the recidivism rate for people get

141:21

now with criminal records is so high

141:24

because you know it's it's such a

141:26

competitive job environment who they're

141:28

gonna they gonna give it to someone

141:29

who's volunteering that they've

141:31

committed crimes are they gonna give to

141:32

somebody else and generally they'll just

141:34

give it to somebody else well for

141:35

example I worked as a teacher I worked

141:39

as a teacher for many years and I was

141:42

successful as a teacher I could handle

141:44

problems students it really wasn't a

141:45

problem you know I mean and I had an

141:50

interesting take on things because of my

141:52

life experiences now why should people

141:56

be barred from teaching because they had

141:59

a criminal record I mean I can

142:00

understand it if you were a pedophile or

142:02

something like that but you know it

142:08

students need different points of view

142:10

you can't just be the same sort of you

142:13

know cookie cutter left the University

142:18

student gets his degree and then goes to

142:20

the classroom and it's a real shame so I

142:25

think the work you do is excellent

142:26

because you are giving another point of

142:29

view and you are giving opportunities

142:30

for the X Comics to you know put their

142:38

review point forward appreciate that Jon

142:41

shall we finish with a San Quentin

142:43

prison handshake I don't know there

142:46

wasn't much touching embodies in saying

142:49

in Arizona it was the boy in San Quentin

142:55

now they did people were pretty nervous

142:58

about their personal space

143:00

clothes no you didn't get close people

143:02

like that or make moves maybe your

143:04

cellie you know not mean I'm not gonna

143:05

get a hook

143:06

and what you

143:10

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