Transcript
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yeah Matt this is the 10-minute Bible
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our I'm in Denver Colorado at the
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assumption greek orthodox cathedral and
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i don't you know this about me or not
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but i'm i guess the kind of christian
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that you call a protestant which means
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that this is not in my wheelhouse
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i'm stepping outside my element to learn
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something new about really what
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effectively is a big fatty branch of the
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christian family tree that's on the
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other side of the trunk from me so the
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guy who runs this joints been kind
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enough to let me run in here and meet
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with him he's gonna show me around and
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answer my questions and hopefully i'm
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gonna learn some stuff i didn't know
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before no maybe you will too
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this place smells different than
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Protestantism it was a incense and this
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is Chris I'm Matt nice to meet you I
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worked here is it weird if I wear the
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hat in here is not alright it's empty if
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it was full that we would would whack it
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off her head okay I'm glad there are
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boundaries would you mind just showing
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me around the place and how it works
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mostly Orthodox churches are domed the
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ancient church is usually read on the
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first churches that were given to the
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church where actually gymnasiums and
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thus were the Basilica comes from the
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dome basically has Christ in the middle
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who we you know for us is God so God
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watches over everything everybody can
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see him fear on that side on this side
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you see each other and the dome has
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always been a Christian symbol but you
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know who stole that right the government
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all the governments have domes down yes
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I want to watch over you can collect all
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your taxes and so when you come into the
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you know into the church here the front
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is a it's still part of the dome but
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usually we would call an apse okay and
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in there is an icon of the Virgin Mary
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presenting the Christ child
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so architectural it is kind of a message
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where God is up here we're down here and
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then the Incarnation is right in the
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middle and then if you look here this is
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the Nativity of Christ there's actually
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two Christ child in there if you look at
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him especially whatever he's big you
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think I mean he doesn't look like a
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child you might say a little shrunken
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man he's got a receiving receding
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forehead I don't know anything about
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that
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and both killer and the reason is they
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don't want to portray you know Jesus as
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a baby they want to portray the the
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the divinity of Christ the maturity of
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Christ even in a little baby so the
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visiting I got an iconography usually
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does stuff like that so the faces are
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long the fingers are long the colors are
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more earth and and there's no there's no
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expressions a real cool thing that the
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ancient Greeks discovered is you become
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part of the art because however you feel
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with no expression you paint that on
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there so if you know whatever you see
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you see this so all of these you won't
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see a smile you'll see Jesus on the
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cross and there's not even found
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sometimes they call these windows to
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heaven the idea is what are the truth
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you know of Christ that we're trying to
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portray so how is that art those
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pictures of specific saints specific
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characters how is that different then a
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pretty picture that you would put we got
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more history so we wear a history over
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you know over our heads Orthodox
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churches since they go back it's a
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cultural difference I mean they're
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ornate sometimes too ornate but the idea
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is I mean people come in here and
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they're like oh you know they're pretty
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awed by it you get the space and the
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idea is you want to you know you can't
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capture but what you can try to do is
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create an aura of seeking God so you
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have a high space and you have art and
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you have beauty and color and again it's
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physical - you know resurrection also
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it's physical so it's not just you know
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you want a spiritual thing so you you
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just have writings like Islam you know
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you just put a few words and then that's
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it for us it's like you know we're
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pursuing the physical - I'm standing in
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front of God I'd like to look into his
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eyes but you know so we have an icon of
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Jesus overhead but yet but we went
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through a period where the icons were
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rejected that's a long story I want to
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get into way way back in the day right
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twice it happened like iconic Lausanne
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we called it but what happened was the
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church from the very beginning adapt
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adopted art as part of the beauty and if
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you sees you know God is talking to you
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know to Moses and eaten oysters you know
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build an ark and I want this by you know
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this size I want golden things your best
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artisans you know I mean if God orders
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up things like this if Solomon can build
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a beautiful temple these are physical
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places and so that you know judy's have
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understood the physicality of a place a
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sing
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place and so the church adopts that and
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what happened was when we started doing
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images of me and the whole concept of
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images became theologically assaulted
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the church finally on the second round
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came up with the theology and said look
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Jesus was real we did look into his eyes
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we heard him laugh we heard and saw him
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and so it's not wrong to you know we
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don't remember we look so we we don't it
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looks like we'll have we didn't have
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cameras in those days but we paint
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pictures of him to remember because he
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was real but I would argue that for a
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church they didn't have the Bible for
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fifteen hundred years until the printing
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press and literally longer the
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iconography was the teaching tool of its
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day it was the audio-visual of its day
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so you know when kids adults illiterates
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whatever you know we're in church they
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would see the stories and the panels and
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they knew the stories because they were
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painted around them and and just so I'm
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not saying well you know we invented
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this like I said if you go to you see
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him in the catacombs I mean they were
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there from the very from very early and
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and Christians had no problem with that
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I mean Christians adopted things what
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you're looking at is basically 2,000
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years of it going a certain way like I
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said it's very stylized it's a very
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narrow form of art but it's a very
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unique form of art and it's partly where
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we bend in in view the resurrection and
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in view that we're all God's children
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there's no separation between the living
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and the dead we call the church you know
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that the people have died the church
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triumphant or were the church militant
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we're still fighting the good the good
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fight but there's still one church only
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a nighted beyond the ages we don't
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forget the dead I don't understand that
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in the Protestant world it's like once
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you're dead you're gone you know you
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know you're out of it and it's like why
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because you can't donate anymore all of
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God's family is united and we remember
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them in the paintings okay so when
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people go to church this I recognize
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from Protestantism their pews you sit
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there this I recognize from
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Protestantism it looks like the place
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where the people who run things are
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sitting but we do not have one of those
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and Protestants what the what's it the
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amazing care interesting discovery there
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that's the bishops throne literally it's
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called a throne yeah it really is and
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this is a cathedral which means the
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Church of the the
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Bishop's seek this goes right back to to
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Ignatius you know that the church's
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authorities is represented in the in the
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office of the bishop and the throne is
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just a symbol of it it's a remnant of
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the Roman structure and then this is not
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where the leaders are work actually back
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in there this is where people come up
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for the sacraments all the sacraments
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are done here and it's elevated a little
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bit you know we're raising our our game
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you know you guys would be marriage
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baptism Eucharist confession we usually
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do face to face and we don't have like
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you know little little places that we go
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so this space like this obviously set
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apart this is something different what
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is the difference between out here and
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through those doors this goes back to
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the angel you know we inherited a lot of
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what we believe and do like incense and
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altars from Judaism okay the columns are
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pretty unique to this church those are
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Greek keys this is four or five
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thousand-year-old Greek art so are the
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columns the church adapted the the Greek
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can be I went to Alaska and they had
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Greek Orthodox totem poles the church
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always adapts so Greek culture is still
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sort of built in here most most Orthodox
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churches will have an icon of Christ you
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know an image of Christ John the Baptist
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the Virgin Mary again presenting the
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Christ and then the name of the church
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those are pretty standard now in
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Orthodox churches and then the rest are
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just you know people put in whatever
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they want to put but those are pretty
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standard now north of do we have that
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here on the far ends actually don't
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remember them all I have to get this is
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Constantine this is I think I think it's
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Demetrius it could be George this is
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Constantine or this is so on the left is
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Constantine Helen with the cross oh I
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see the cross now yeah I would expect to
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see the like the chai and ro symbol or
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something with him so what happens on
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the table in here in the early church
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the whole concept of the pagan rituals
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which were there was an altar I mean
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that was like a no-no for Christianity
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but eventually as paganism faded the
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church like everything else assimilated
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and adopted that so they sometimes they
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still call it the table of oblation and
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that's but the sacrifice is not a bloody
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sacrifice although we do the body and
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blood of Christ so it is blood but it's
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really bread and wine and we know that
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but by God you know it's because because
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this is my body and so we believe that
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okay we don't use like
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transubstantiation or words like that we
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don't try to limit it we don't know
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exactly how it was going yeah okay our
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church is very focused on mystery
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everything in here is mystical so what
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we do is we we prepare everything up
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there bring it out and serve it so
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there's you know the clergy work from
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here past through and this would be like
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technically like what what they jewed
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Judaism would call the Holy of Holies
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okay so there there's a certain type of
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priests that can go in at certain times
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is walk through the doors except the
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priests some people say well women go on
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the altar and that we have the thing
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about women that's not true there's no
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limit to its just that who you don't go
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in there unless you have a reason to be
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in there okay and only the priests have
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a reason to be in there you know
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something else you might notice is that
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we have this behind the altar the olders
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pretty simple just a couple of candles
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mm-hmm that little thing on the top is
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and we call it a burdock or we just keep
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reserved sacrament in there for
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emergencies it's gold fell out here yeah
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behind it is a crucifix but you won't
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see Stations of the Cross or really gory
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crosses I mean there is a little bit of
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blood on there but the whole the focus
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is not on the crucifixion and that's
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what really sets us apart our view of
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salvation is different when we sit down
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we'll talk about that there's also a
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chair back there if you could see it
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that's called the scene thrown on that's
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the actual bishops chair that's where
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the bishop actually sits the one in the
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front was where the emperor used to sit
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and the Emperor being coordinated he
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didn't get a communion from the bishop
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he'd go up and take communion himself
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oh because he you know was appointed by
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God to run the kingdom which was
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considered Christian but you know all
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that's gone what that's tricky oh yeah
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what are we looking at here this is a
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baptismal font how do you fit somebody
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in there to dunk them
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this is for babies well I mean I could
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fit in there yeah but you can put an
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adult in there so do you actually
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immerse a baby in this yeah really yeah
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we believe in full immersion and we
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don't have an age of reasoning like the
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Roman Catholics and the press it's got
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that from Roman Catholic philosophy and
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so it's like as a parent you you teach
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your kids from the very beginning so
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this is not about indoctrinating our
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kids and saying well you're not old
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enough to make a decision this is about
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from youth allowing them to participate
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in the sacraments we don't deny that to
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children so kids get - oh yeah and
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there's no 12 year old stuff it's just
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you know there's no age of reasoning
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because that limits what if you have you
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know get hit in the head and can't think
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straight great point you know I mean
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it's about this it's about your heart so
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we don't have any limitations on kids
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most of our baptisms our kids but we do
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get adults and so you know we you know
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the church has been settled in for a
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couple thousand you know fifteen hundred
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years so mostly it's babies so did
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somebody become a part of the Greek
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Orthodox Church upon baptism yeah and
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that's pretty Universal in Christianity
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born again and all of that so if a
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family came in and all kind of
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converging once they have like a ten
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year old they wouldn't be able to
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receive the sacrament to tell their
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baptized right so when you when you do
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communion I'm sorry the Eucharist okay
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you do okay all right so like some kind
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of blessing or something happens up here
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bread and wine and we bring that up in
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the bread and wine Leben eleven bread we
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did you and it's real wine my grape
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juices wine it's eNOS and Greek and you
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know there's we don't have the
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puritanical lien someone with the
12:45
government or they make an exception for
12:47
kids drinking wine suppose if Jesus use
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peyote with you there - okay so this so
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this comes out do people just line up
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down the middle or do you distribute it
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out in the church is a little different
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this church you know there's this is
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pretty big and so we usually have three
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if not four lines so is usually guy
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there I'm in the middle and another guy
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there and we usually have three lines
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all right so I'm on my way upstairs here
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and
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I feel a little less formal when I get
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back here to the back of the room
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because this place really does make me
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feel something if you've watched any of
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my other stuff you know the churches
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have this effect on me even if I don't
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think all of the exact same stuff
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because there's beauty in how artfully
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this communicates truth and spiritual
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truth is they understand spiritual truth
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but also this space is designed to make
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you feel things about God and yourself
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and where you fit and one of the big
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differences I noticed between this and
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the really amazing Catholic churches
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I've been to is that Catholic churches
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are made to make you feel small but to
13:48
communicate the authority of the church
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whereas this is more like the concept of
13:53
the roundtable it's like it's designed
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to make you feel like you're a part of
13:59
the church like you're a part of this
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almost Romans concept of a cloud of
14:05
witnesses that you're surrounded by who
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are alive and with you and even
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participating in your faith as you
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participate in your moment on the stage
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of history it's a subtle difference but
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I think that difference is intentional
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and I think it's evolved that way over
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the years between Catholic churches and
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Orthodox churches because of theology
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Chris what title am I supposed to use is
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it pastor is it people use a father
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Chris that's st. Paul says I fathered
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you in the faith okay and the father is
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not a title Jesus is called on man
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father it's a recognition of the Holy
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Spirit so the rank doesn't come from
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anything that we do or earn it's it's
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recognition of the Holy Spirit
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do you like father do you like Chris I
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don't care okay I'll go with Chris for
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now then take me back to the beginning
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when did when did the Eastern Orthodox
14:56
Church or the Orthodox Church start
14:59
Pentecost
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that's how yeah and the thing about it
15:04
is like you know okay in the Catholic
15:07
Church it's like you know Peter was
15:09
given the keys of the kingdom of heaven
15:10
but but was Peter or the Apostles near
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our viewpoint as to all the Apostles and
15:16
what did Jesus say the gates of Hell
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will not prevail against the church well
15:19
if that's true you can't have the church
15:21
existing up us dating and then re
15:23
existing there has to be continuity
15:25
otherwise Jesus lied if there's a
15:28
promise of continuity then it should be
15:30
there and the history is very important
15:32
to Christianity
15:33
otherwise you're reinventing it Christ
15:36
never wrote a single word he trusted us
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to pass it on I think the reason he
15:42
never wrote anything is because he
15:43
didn't trust us to keep it
15:45
you're not putting those words in my
15:47
mouth it's what we do what he basically
15:49
taught people and then they passed it on
15:52
and so people say that well this is
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where I get in trouble a lot of people
15:55
is you know that's the scripture is the
15:57
source no it's not it's the events that
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are the source the people who lived it
16:02
description it written told you know
16:04
after you know they're literally almost
16:05
100 years later and we didn't have
16:07
printing presses until Gutenberg which
16:09
was a contemporary of Martin Luther so
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for three quarters of the church life
16:13
till the 1500s we didn't have Bibles we
16:16
didn't have Bibles and in our church we
16:17
didn't have until the eighteen errors
16:18
because we were enslaved so how did the
16:22
church get by without Bibles you know
16:24
the history of it's important that's why
16:26
the the iconography and the dome is
16:28
relevant
16:29
that's the audio/visual in the ancient
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world that's how they taught things if
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there's no history and no continuity and
16:36
the Holy Spirit's got problems and the
16:38
Holy Spirit doesn't have problems we're
16:39
the ones with problems our
16:40
interpretations are the ones with
16:42
problems and argument with Protestantism
16:44
is like you know I said earlier if you
16:47
got it on tape I don't know but you know
16:49
you got a pope and you don't like it so
16:51
your response is to make everybody a
16:53
pope everybody believes whatever they
16:54
want to believe and that doesn't work
16:55
either if the Holy Spirit speaking and
16:58
saying well here's the truth and tells
17:00
everybody a different truth that's not
17:02
working the Orthodox response where does
17:05
theology come from the Orthodox Church
17:07
if you look at the council's
17:10
like the first council and in the Nicene
17:13
council it's like everybody got together
17:14
and forged out this best it could you
17:16
know in other words you you hammered it
17:18
out through consensus which is pretty
17:20
much what science does you know it
17:22
belongs to everybody you can't take it
17:24
too far because everybody won't go too
17:25
far but then when it goes places you
17:28
don't want to go you can fix it so would
17:30
you say the Roman Catholic Church
17:32
started in Acts chapter two as well
17:35
no no I wouldn't see it say that the
17:38
Greek the Orthodox the Catholic Church
17:41
has gone through a lot of changes I mean
17:43
you know when you women Pope could speak
17:45
ex cathedra and he tried to force
17:48
himself over the whole church it's
17:49
basically a resurgence of the Roman
17:52
Empire they have a history in the
17:54
continuity and I think we recognize that
17:56
orthodoxy recognizes that but we don't
17:59
consider them heretics as well we
18:01
actually we do I think we will consider
18:02
them more schismatic because we're
18:04
trying to work it out we got a thousand
18:06
year problem right and they've divided
18:08
Christianity and then they that's what
18:10
gave birth to the Reformation and it's
18:13
like how do you put all this back
18:14
together again so so I feel like I'm
18:16
super crystal clear on the Protestant
18:18
read on Scripture in terms of how
18:20
salvation happens but I have to admit I
18:22
have no idea how you guys think of it so
18:24
can you like explain to me like I'm five
18:26
how does a person how is a person a
18:29
Christian in the Orthodox I would say
18:30
that the Protestant in the Catholic
18:32
world which you got it from them sorry
18:34
okay no no that's all right is what I
18:37
would call based on redemptive theology
18:39
okay all right so weird empathy ology
18:42
works like this man is sinful rejected
18:48
we rejected God and therefore were
18:50
punished and we've received God's
18:53
justice because we rejected God and
18:55
God's punishment is just and and and the
18:58
wages of sin is death so we're paying
18:59
but God doesn't want that so he offers
19:02
some salvation so he offers Jesus to pay
19:05
the price
19:05
and so Jesus pays the price of blood and
19:08
then we are redeemed there for
19:10
redemptive theology wash by the blood of
19:13
the Lamb and set free yes okay
19:15
that's salvation but is it that's that's
19:21
actually a formula and that's all it is
19:24
so let me go back and explain that so
19:26
our salvation works like this we we
19:29
rejected God and God is a life we chose
19:32
death we bide rejecting God we rejected
19:35
life and God is not so punishing us to
19:39
say oh I have to have a price of blood
19:40
you know is God really that narrow you
19:44
know he doesn't we've chosen that out of
19:47
the freedom that he gave us
19:48
enough freedom to reject him and we did
19:49
so he basically becomes human and and
19:52
tries to reclaim us but not with taking
19:55
our freedom away he comes and says this
19:57
is the path of salvation so first it
19:59
becomes human incarnates becomes human
20:01
teaches us leads us and then he accepts
20:03
death and it's not the death that saved
20:06
this and this whole thing about an
20:09
Isaiah that by his stripes are we healed
20:11
you know does that mean that by whipping
20:14
him and is making him suffer that God
20:16
somehow his justice was justified what
20:18
does it mean that because he did that we
20:20
found a path because now I lead all men
20:22
to myself people don't pay attention to
20:24
boring stories the pearl of English
20:27
literature is Romeo and Juliet if they
20:31
didn't die in that awkward manner it'd
20:32
be a boring story right if Jesus didn't
20:34
die a horrific death who would have paid
20:36
attention now while I draw a men to
20:38
myself salvation didn't occur on the
20:40
cross it occurred on the third day and
20:43
Jesus didn't rise from the dead and this
20:45
is where I think process is getting
20:46
wrong Jesus raised from they did to
20:48
prove that he was the Redeemer he rose
20:50
from the dead to prove that he was God
20:51
and only that God could redeem no Jesus
20:54
raised from the dead because he was
20:55
human because that's the plan for humans
20:58
that's salvation we're gonna race from
21:02
our graves
21:02
and if you read the Nicene Creed it's
21:04
really clear I believe in the
21:05
resurrection of the Dead and the life of
21:07
the age to come on the sea believe in in
21:10
punishment of God you believe in the
21:13
grace the mercy the resurrection of
21:14
punishment pause there yeah would argue
21:16
and say see if you read it in and say
21:19
well God as angry and he's punishing I
21:20
don't see God as angry as punishing as a
21:22
God is consistent God is consistent so
21:25
if you says I gave you freedom and I
21:27
will not take it away and you use the
21:29
freedom to destroy yourself he's not
21:31
punishing you you chose it so what
21:33
happens if you choose no no we believe
21:36
in Hell look hell is hell is not some
21:39
place that God prepared to get you away
21:41
from him he'll is God God is the fire of
21:44
hell if you reject God you you're facing
21:47
the full force of his of his power
21:49
without him I don't know how that would
21:52
work I don't know what really what hell
21:53
is all I know is it's probably only
21:58
thing in life I really fear
22:00
I don't fear judgment but I do fear God
22:02
and I know if you reject him I think
22:08
hell is not a big party of wild people
22:11
just a we're not a party dude I think
22:13
it's a bunch of lonely people who hate
22:15
everything everything except themselves
22:18
and it will not be a pleasant place but
22:22
God won't let them die either
22:24
he won't you say well gonna erase you to
22:25
oblivion he doesn't do that you know we
22:29
don't have venial or mortal sins okay
22:32
yeah we don't do that he's thinking the
22:33
resurrection changes the perspective
22:35
right so so here we are at judgment
22:37
we're resurrected in a judgement and on
22:39
your right hand is the guy that murdered
22:41
you and on your left is the guy that
22:43
slandered you so in a break there you
22:46
turn to the guy on the right and you go
22:49
so what you didn't accomplish anything
22:51
Here I am you know and you trip the guy
22:55
to your left you go but I'll never
22:56
forget what you said in the light of the
22:59
Resurrection when all life is restored
23:01
you know which sins are worse I mean
23:04
think about it there's a there's a great
23:06
equalizer to all of this stuff and it
23:08
helps I think Forge how you're gonna be
23:10
as a Christian don't slander people
23:11
don't do bet they certainly don't kill
23:13
people but that doesn't have the
23:15
permanence of some of the other things
23:16
it's all in the resurrection puts a
23:20
balance on things that wasn't there
23:22
including the great love of God and the
23:24
great gift of life and how fresh it is
23:27
precious it is even to him so during the
23:30
interview while we were all miked up and
23:31
in the course of this conversation I of
23:33
course
23:33
asked Chris about the Bible but I
23:36
screwed things up and I didn't have the
23:37
camera running right so the footage
23:38
doesn't work but here's what he had to
23:40
say about that and I think you find it
23:41
really interesting the Bible technically
23:43
was never really organized it's
23:44
basically wasn't capitalized at you know
23:46
yeah you know the church always was able
23:51
to put it in however I wanted to do it
23:52
you know our viewpoint is it's our book
23:55
we do to really want with it okay I mean
23:58
you know people say well the Bible tells
24:00
you to do this we're like dudes we wrote
24:02
this thing and then we do what were they
24:04
wow that drives people crazy yeah well I
24:07
mean I I could see it yeah that's nails
24:09
on a chalkboard to a product
24:11
yesterday I mean when you have a history
24:12
of a council that put the gospel or the
24:14
Bible's together and said well Thomas is
24:16
not in there if you've watched his
24:19
channel for any period of time you know
24:20
that Chris and I greatly disagree on
24:22
that view of the Bible but I am super
24:25
thankful to him the rather than telling
24:27
me what he knew I would want to hear he
24:29
shared his honest opinion about the
24:31
thing knowing that I view the Bible as
24:33
being something that is divinely
24:34
inspired by God and not just the product
24:37
of human authors any rate I thought it
24:39
was helpful data thought you would
24:40
appreciate hearing that from him as well
24:41
closing thoughts here I looked up this
24:44
guy Pastor Chris out of the blue was
24:45
like hey here's all I'm really asking of
24:48
you I would just like for you to trust
24:49
me someone you've never met to come to
24:51
your church somewhere I've never been
24:53
and then I would like you to just host
24:54
me for three or four hours show me all
24:56
around take a whole bunch of your time
24:58
sit with me for an interview trust that
25:00
I'll represent you fairly when I edit
25:01
that up and film it and send it out to
25:04
the whole internet for them to see oh
25:05
and also I'd like you to just be
25:07
ridiculously honest about everything
25:08
because I genuinely want to understand a
25:11
faith tradition well your faith
25:13
tradition better and two it was like
25:15
yeah okay cool when do you want to come
25:17
that's awesome so make sure to extend
25:21
thanks and appreciation to Pastor Chris
25:23
for being willing to turn over his cards
25:25
even if you don't agree with or like all
25:27
of those cards the goal of a
25:31
conversation like this is not to go in
25:33
guns blazing to try to convince the
25:35
other guy that all the things that I
25:36
think and have figured out and we're
25:38
right because I'm so smart in a Bible
25:40
genius I'm not no the goal of a
25:42
conversation like this and I hope the
25:44
goal of watching a video like this for
25:45
you you just learn understand a
25:48
different expression of belief a little
25:51
different flavor of Christianity and
25:52
frankly a really significant important
25:55
one better that's the effect it had on
25:57
me I made a friend I learned a whole
25:59
bunch of stuff I feel like I better
26:01
understand the points of commonality
26:03
that we share and I feel like I better
26:05
understand and I'm not threatened by the
26:07
places where I just see it different
26:10
whatever the case I love pastor Chris
26:12
I'm so grateful for you for having an
26:14
appetite for this kind of conversation
26:16
and thanks a ton for just being around
26:18
this channel in general you're awesome
26:19
I'm at there's a time in a Bible hour I
26:21
always say this at the end I don't know
26:23
why I do that thanks I'll see
26:24
soon
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